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Wednesday, October 21, 2009
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October
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Cause if I were in fact in tune, I'd be following the law.
And, if in fact I'm not being led by The Spirit, what am I being led by?
So, essentially, it feels like maybe you would be thinking that perhaps what I'm doing & living is actually not good enough. Which makes me wonder with your logic here, where does that put me when time runs out?
... Read More
I think I know that you know that my relationship with the big guy is solid. But your logic doesn't necessarily seem logical.
Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!
Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.
I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?
Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?
'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)
In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.
Love you.
- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More
hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).
It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)
On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.
I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.
Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......
Or Blake Webb,... Read More
Or Santa Clause,
Or Jesus, or Ronnie,
By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........
........with application?
I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.
I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.
As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)
the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.
romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More
christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.
Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.
Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More
BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!
We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.
Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.
But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.
He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.
'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)
Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.
Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.
Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?
'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)
and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).
ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More
i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,
2 John 1:5-6
... Read More
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'
Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.
And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'
I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.
Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...
I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.
So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.
I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.
If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.
Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!
"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"
i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.
M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.
All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU
WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE
Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!
HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN
Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"
http://www.blueletterbible
janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.
It is the nature of man to make excuses for his failings and justify his lack of willingness in regards to God's law. I see this written a lot in going back up through a lot of these posts. More recent posts claim they would question their knowledge of (his) word, and what that obedience has internally produced in them. This in itself is questionable in the fact that one should not claim in word or deed to be more knowledgeable in any regard to Jesus or the disciples.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) reminds us;
“3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” To claim your knowledge and understanding far exceeds the knowledge of another fills one with a haughty spirit, which can lead to pride.... Read More
Any man who chooses to follow the commandments as stated in the Torah does so with a righteous heart, believing what he does is his calling through his study in God’s word.
“23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” Colossians 3:23 (NIV) tells us that following these commandments is done so through our own faith and belief in God’s word, not for the approval of disapproving men or woman.
Going back to Romans 12:3, it is by the measure of faith that God has given a man for him to look at himself and determine within his beliefs whether he does right or wrong by the Lord. The Holy Spirit will surely step in and correct any missteps with conviction.
All in all, I found it heart-wrenching to sit idly by while one claims to know more than another when the bible is clear that it is through faith that such determinations is made. The bible is not a text book that can be quoted or misquoted from memory and used to suit the purposes of the individual, but a living, breathing creation of God that when perused daily constantly alters the flow of information received by all. Studying the word beyond memorization leads to the stronger faith, and ergo, allows the scriptures to dwell within one’s own heart.
Ronnie, you should not just tell people to do what is better. You have to show people that you can do what is better. Everybody knows that they are to keep God's commandments.
What makes me very angry is that you guys spend so much time trying to win this argument through the authority of scriptures which is good. But we are missing the point. Of course, we are to keep all the commandments. But what are those commandments. That is the issue. All I hear is "Hey, guess what, we should keep the law!" For crying out loud, of course we are to keep whatever that we are suppose to keep. It is so nice that we get to talk about this. Hey, guess what, you have to clean up your room. Hey little girl, you have to go wash the dishes/ Hey little boy, you must clean up the yard. Hey people, we must do everything that God wants us to do out of love! Of course! But how do we do that? I'm going to say this again and again that we know that we must do good. I mean, new Christians or some people may not know this but I at least do. But the emphasis must be on the how for right now! How are we to exactly clean our rooms? How are we to wash the dishes? Oh, excuse me, those are parables. I mean, how are we to keep the law? What are the laws. And then, let's do them. Let's make videos that will show the world that we are keeping all the laws, every single one of them. That is the real problem.... Read More
I want to know how!