Keep Torah

Keep Torah!



read this whole note, here:

http://jadodog.blogspot.com/2009/10/keep-torah.html









TORAH


IF WE ARE TO FOLLOW TORAH


THEN GIVE ME WHAT THEY ARE




I really need a list of all the commandments

And I then really want to know how to








TORAH


IF YOU HAVE THE ANSWER TO THAT



THEN DELETE THE FOLLOWING


AND BROADCAST YOUR ANSWER






FOR ALL TO SEE

(& THEN LATER DO)




and then don't even bother

reading the following


(which originated from Ronnie Gilden's post:

http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#/note.php?note_id=146150702946&ref=mf)




and which later went here:


Part One: the intro:


http://jadodog.blogspot.com/2009/10/torah-master.html






Yours truly,

Oatmeal Joey Arnold

(Rewritten/ jog: 2pm: Wed: 10/21/2009)
or reposted here, now, or revisted, or added to:

PS.

I am not as sarcastic as you think I am!

I am actually quite sincere!

I really do care more than you'll ever know!

Joey Arnold

I believe in principle. Principle is God. Principles are God. Are the trinity. Is the trinity. God is spirit. Spirit is Jesus. Jesus is spirit (& man). Jesus is word. Jesus is the Word. The Word is for us. The Word was not originally written in English. The Word was written through flesh, through hands, through the Bible author's spirit, their personality, but through God's spirit. The Word was written from and through the spirit. This spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, that dove, that fire, that water, that wind, that breath of life, that mediator, that counsel, that soul, that mojo, that brother in high places. The spirit is Jesus. Jesus is light. Jesus breaths out that spirit. Jesus is the face to God, of God, for God, through God. I believe principles are everlasting truth. Principles are eternal. Principles do not change. Principles are universal. Principles are not one dimensional. Principles cannot change. Principles cannot be added to. Principles cannot be improved. Principles are perfect. Principles are truths. Principles go beyond commandments. Principles are practical. Principles are directly applicable. Principles might be easier to recognized within Proverbs. I believe that we cannot live without principles. I believe that principles are the keys to the doors to our life. Principles are our gateway to how we are to think, live, walk, talk, do things, make things, to how we are to love, to laugh, to learn, to think, to wait, to help out, to reach out, to be holy (or not).
Principles are light. Principles are not sin. Principles are what is best.

Principles giggle the Word. Principles are gold. The Word is that earth. That is why we are to dig. To eat. To discover, not invent, truth.
... Read More
However, God did not throw just gold at us. He did not just give us principles. I do not think we could handle that. I do not think we could relate, identify, or understand strait truth from Heaven. For example. Jesus is not God's son. Not literally. Not in the way that we understand it. Because God did not have a wife. God probably didn't give birth to Jesus in space. I mean, back before there was space. Instead, there is truth in that statement. That Jesus is like God's son. They have a bond, a relationship. And how else would we relate to that? If we were to take the Bible, without the spirit, then we may miss out. I do not then mean that there was no real world flood. And the list goes on. But I am saying that principles are in the Bible, but within the houses of programs. Principles can help us. They can help us do what we must do. Principles can help us develop commandments. Commandments are not always directly related or derived from pure principle. Some commandments are connected to programs.

I believe that God illustrates principles (which will help us do what we must do) through programs. Programs are specific application to the principles. When Moses wrote the first five books to our Bible, the Torah, God's spirit guided him, as they were in the desert, to bring to life some truth that will help them as they prepare for the war against terrorists. I mean, against Jericho. Moses did not make up the stories about creation and so forth. But it was written directly to those people at that time. It was written to illustrate God's agenda. To show how God does things. To show how we do things in specific circumstances. There were lessons that can be taken from it. At the time, it served it's purpose. However, of course, it still has a purpose. But even Israel didn't take it in directly. When they read God's programs (what He did, what the people did), they applied them. They did not just build an ark.

I was telling Blake, just yesterday, that I don't have a problem with following. Jeff agrees. But I don't think it can be done in a direct way. For example, I think Deuteronomy talks about not shaving your head. You do not want to identify with pagan countries. You want to be separate. You want to be in the world. Not of it, so to speak. If we take that literally, we could refrain from bald heads. That is understandable. I don't think the Bible is directly telling us to do that. That was merely the program at that time. But if we apply that principle to us first, then, through application, then we may find ourselves with hair on our head. But it is not going to be because we are just obeying the Word, directly. I mean, the principle, behind that head thing is the same. But how we do it may not be the same. The program may be different. I must not assume. I will not say that it is ok to shave your head. But I will not say that it is not ok just because they were told not to. We must bring the principle and apply the principle, not the program.

Apply the principle, not the program.

However, if we take the shaving head thing and we do not take the principle out of it and apply it, if we just take the program from it and say that we can't just only do this one thing. Then we may miss out on other things. Say, for example, what about certain clothes. Or piercings. Or somehow getting identified in another way. I mean, if we do not want to be associated with the wrong crowd, then what are we going to do? If I don't want people to think that I'm a nerd then I will just take off my glasses. Ok, that was a joke. It might not be that easy. I may have to change my clothes, how I talk, what I know, what I continue to learn, where I go, who I hang out with. But when I do those things, I do so out of application. I take the program and I dissect the truth, the principles out of it. I am not trying to say that you do not know any of this. I just really enjoy writing. And all of this helps me because I am still learning how to write.

But please dissect the principles from the programs.

October 7 at 1:05pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

But please dissect the principles from the programs.

October 7 at 1:17pm · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Jeff, you are a very smart man. Why didn't we ever get to have these conversations in person when you were up in Portland years ago?

Let's discuss the new covenant- are you implying that the Torah that will- or is being- written on our hearts is different than the one God gave through Moses? I guess more specifically, in the new covenant it says that the Torah will be written on our hearts- but no new law is ever really given. And as Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:17, the Torah isn't going away until this earth has faded away (I don't think it has as of yet)- Hebrews 8 clarifies that the problem isn't with God's commandments- but the people who left the covenant with God- that's why there needs to be a new covenant- 'cause they broke the old one.
Not only that, but is the new covenant fully in place yet? Jeremiah 31:34 says that when this new covenant happens, no one will have to teach anyone about God or even that there is a God- 'for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them...'
Does everyone know God yet? And do we still teach people about God?... Read More

Tell me about this newness of Paul? There's certainly a newness on Paul's understanding salvation comes through faith and not conversion to Judaism (the problem with most of the first century churches- most of Galatians deals with this). Even if he's merely speaking of salvation being a matter of faith and not works, that never changes what the Torah contains. You mentioned the spirit is the law and that it should never lead you away from the law. Paul agrees by saying that the law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) but with the understanding that keeping Torah comes from your heart and soul. If we aren't keeping it first in our spirit, then why are we doing it at all? What I'm trying to get at here, is Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee, and he knew only the Torah as the Law of God- so obviously the spirit would never lead us away from God's Law- contrary, as I noted before, it is established through faith. But that doesn't change the contents of God's Law.
My point is that if we are part of the covenant- new or old- then we are Israel. And as members of this covenant, God says to walk in His ways so that we may be holy and set apart as His covenant people- but His 'ways' haven't changed.

Unless you see different laws somewhere?

I'm enjoying this very much by the way- what better way to spend time than talking about God's Word?

October 7 at 1:50pm

Ronald Gilden

Joey,

So if the principles of the Torah are what the Pharisees were trying to follow, why then did Jesus rebuke them asking 'Why do you keep the traditions of men and forsake the commandments of God?' On that very matter, do you think if Jesus were here and saw us not keeping Sabbath and worshiping on another day He wouldn't say something similar? 'This seems oddly familiar...' I think that's how it would start.
I do agree that there are principles behind the commandments, I'm not discounting that- but why do we- the children of God- don't even obey them anyway?
... Read More
By the way, where was that in Deuteronomy?

October 7 at 1:59pm

Joey Arnold

Pharisees over-emphasized programs over principles. Jesus did things on the Sabbath. The program was "Do not this and do not that!" Point blank. Jesus gave illustrations. The principle is still there. Jesus did not break God's law. Jesus stuck with the principles. Jesus did not sin. Sin goes against principles. Principles is the flesh and blood to perfection. Principles are not sin. Programs were not, either. But the program can be. Jesus rebuked traditions or programs. Jesus emphasized commandments or principles (within those commandments).

The principles, not the commandments, should be followed. I am going to get letters for that statement. I might get in trouble for saying that. But I'm still Joey Arnold, not John McCain or Barack Obama, or Abraham Lincoln, or a dolphin, and I approved this message, "Principles over commandments." Commandments and principles seem to be the same. One and the same. It seems direct. Principles may be commandments. They may sometimes be the same. But it all depends.

Programs: here are some: there are some things they were told to do: do not shave your head if, dot dot dot, or shave your slave's head, dot dot dot, do not make cuts on your body, dot dot dot. Do not be bald: Lev.21:5. http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/14-1.htm. There are principles from it. ... Read More

Ronnie,
I think that one difference is in the why or how (or in the concept to the old or new covenant). But our difference may not be merely in the whatness to what we must do. The What? The what says "Follow Jesus." The what describes the problem or the solution. The what is pretty simple. The what is in the covenant. In doing the most good. What is best. But how and why? Where is the spirit in that? You agree with motives. Doing what is right out of love. Now, I say that we are to do the principles, not the commandments, not the programs, not the letter of the law, as Jeff agreed. And you might just maybe disagree to say that we are to directly follow the commandment, directly, the law, the program, the specifics, the details, exactly, point blank, apart from application, and so on, but because it seems that we are in the same covenant. That is the main issue. I think it really comes down to the covenant or lack thereof. Opps. Did I say "Or lack thereof." How dare I write that. Or not? Hmmmmmm.

How or why we (the who) are to follow the commandments (the what) may just rest on whether we are in the old testament, right now, I mean, the old covenant, the new covenant, or are we in between the covenants, or are we after the second covenant, what does the Bible say about all of this, or are we in an age of grace, the time of the Gentiles, the not-Jews. I think the rest of this discussion page and note is all dependent on that, on whether we are or are not in an old or new or something covenant or something. Even if the Bible was written to my father, hypothetically, it still was not written to me. I think you should say "I do this because the Bible tells me so." I think you would say that, too. That is what I would say but I wouldn't just do it just because the Bible was telling me to do that. And I am not trying to say that what is right for me is not right for you, necessarily. I am not saying "You're right but then I am also right!" But whatever I am saying has something to do with this covenant thing. We should talk about covenants.

How can or does or is an old or new covenant or age of grace or whatever then influence how we may or may not do all or some of the laws or the commandments or principles or programs (depending on if it is to or for us directly or indirectly, and what about dispensations), or to why or how we do them?

October 7 at 3:50pm · Delete

Rhonda Elmatti

So what about Leviticus Chapter 20. Particularly verse 9 http://www.youversion.com/bible/nlt/lev/20/9

According to the law it would be completely reasonable to have me done for? right?

I don't get it.

October 7 at 6:29pm

Joey Arnold

Rhonda, you dishonored Father & Mother. Lev.20:9. The Bible is to us. Bible written directly to us. Forget application. This is the law. You are right. You must be stoned. You must be done away with. Never mind "Do not murder," for you must be put to death. Never mind the need for application, for trying to apply truth to us, justice must rule, capital punishment. It is the law. I mean, if are Jewish, then this is the law. But even if you are not Jewish, the Bible was written to mix multitude. Therefore, it was written to you. If you do not submit to this commandment then you do so out of judgment. But thou shalt not judge. No picking and choosing what you follow or not. Because that would make you lukewarm. Neither hot or cold. That makes God want to puke, throw up, spit you out, throw you away, kill you, stone you, murder you, rape you. But God is love. But God does not like liars. God hates sinners. You must obey all of His commandments, laws, programs, principles. As they are one and the same. We are in the same covenant. There are no such things as dispensations. Hmmmm. There are more rules out there, too. I mean, we could try redefining that rule. We could try saying that we don't have to be stoned no more. I'm no stoner, but how could we do that? How do we get the right to say that we don't have to do, or keep Kosher, or keep the Sabbath, or Lord's Day (which is not the Sabbath), and so on?

We must also do two things at the same time:

1. Preach not to Gentiles! Preach only to Jews! Do not ever question this commandment. I eat this with oatmeal. As Jews or disciples for Jesus, we must only preach to Israel, to God's promised flock, His household, His nation, His special people (Ammi, not to be confused with Lo-Ammi, not my people as seen in Hosea): but the gospel, the kingdom, the blessings, the promises, the promise land, is not for the Gentiles: do not preach to the Gentiles, ever: as in never: do that right now, no questions asked. God wants us to do that right now since it is for us and to us, directly: http://bible.cc/matthew/10-5.htm. ... Read More

2. Preach to Gentiles. Do not just preach to the Jews. In conclusion, it is clear. We are to preach to the Gentiles and we are to not preach to the Gentiles at the same time. Totally doable. If not, I will stone you. Reminds me in Proverbs where it says that we shall answer a fool in his folly. And the next verse, or the previous verse, says that we are to not answer the fool in his folly. It says that we are and then it says that we are not. Never mind contradiction. We have to be in the same covenant. We are drafted in directly. http://bible.cc/matthew/24-14.htm.

October 7 at 7:10pm · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

hmm. well, let's clear up a couple things before we get a little deeper. there are different translations of the word "law" in new and old testaments. i.e. the law of christ, the torah, or the "2 hinging laws". and about that paul guy, he wasn't a pharisee after he'd met Jesus. in fact, after saul became paul, he couldn't possibly belong to the ... Read Moresame sect that differed in some doctrine and especially behavior than that of a disciple of christ. there is a lot of material written about paul and by paul, and it is very important to fully understand his ministry if we are going to use him in our lil debate...

which is as addicting as it gets.

October 8 at 1:15am

Matthew Thomas Kurtz

Whoa, whoa, WHOA - Joey, watch what you're saying here. I don't know what was going through your head while you wrote that last post but back up a little and pay attention to what you're saying. You do realize you actually said "God wants to rape you", do you not? It doesn't seem like you're paying much attention to the answers of your questions - are you seeking truth? Because you're sounding less confused and inquisitive and more blasphemous. The question Rhonda had sounded like an honest concern and you basically used your interpretation of the scripture to tell her she has no hope.

I, personally, have a lot of trouble honoring my mother and father. As anyone who knows me knows that my mother is a hurtful, terrible mess of human tissue - am I to be raped in the name of God for this, Joey? It's paraphrasing such as this that creates cults, false religions and damned souls... Don't get me wrong, Joey - I love you, man... but if you don't have an answer, please don't answer...

On another note, I don't understand why people don't look deeper than English translations. Obviously, translation is influenced by opinion and interpretation because it's not possible to create a word-for-word translation when the English language differs so greatly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. This being said, all English translations are faulty. ... Read More
Let me rephrase; no English translation can be perfect. Take Exodus 20:13, the 6th Commandment, for example, "Thou shall not murder" as taken from NKJ. That's as accurate a translation you can get. People think this is a contradiction to stoning as a punishment or killing in a war, but that's an uneducated interpretation. The King James version has a terrible translation of this commandment, which is more along the lines of creating contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill."... completely ridiculous as the English word "kill" is an all-encompassing word for ending a life, whereas the original Hebrew word "ratsach" is closer translated to "murder" which refers only to the criminal act of killing; barbarously slaughtering another human being against the ways that the Law stipulates.

That all being said, I do have a question for Ronnie... Stoning, as I have already stated, is not a form of murder if it is commanded by Law. It is, however, a very severe punishment... Is it possible to have the punishment changed and the Law remain unchanged? Because it seems as if that's what has happened and I'm curious to know what you think about it... Basically, I want to know all you know about stoning... Did Jesus save us from such harsh punishments or did we simply change it ourselves? By changing the punishment, have we in fact changed the Law? If so, would one be safe to assume that God still wishes us to stone people to death?

October 8 at 1:33am

Jeffrey Walters

emily has mentioned romans 2:13 earlier in order to back her position on following the rules. paul, though, is not taking sides and saying we should follow rules. he is restating a concept where if a man is under law (lives by it) he will be judged either righteously or be condemned, just the same as if teddy (an american) lived in italy he would have to adhere to their laws, not americas.

i bring this up mainly to focus our attention back on romans, and even galatians. be careful to study this material (i suggest observing opposing study guides to get a clear viewpoint from the outside) closely.

"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised." rom 2:25. paul talks like this alot, especially since he preaches to the gentile world. paul makes himself clear that the law was righteous and had a distinct purpose. BUT, paul is even more pressing when he speaks of a new covenant that frees us from the law that made us conscious of sin and prophesied the coming of christ himself.... Read More

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." gal 3:25

October 8 at 1:33am

Jeffrey Walters

and if we have received christ, thus having the spirit to convict us and guide us, we no longer are slaves to the law but are free.

we are free from the law. this idea is everywhere in the epistles, but this is where i arrive at my questions so often with those of you who still follow the torah. why would anyone want to burden them self with so ... Read Moremany commandments, some unreasonable in our modern day times? why, especially now that you have the spirit of GOD at your side to make your will his own? and IF the spirit leads you back to the torah's plenty of rules/ordinances, what does that poduce in you that is good? we know it's not salvation, and we know you're not free, for if you follow one you follow all.

that's really all i got. any more writing and i might as well write a book. wait, that's what joey's doing. haha. but hey, ron, amen to you and the sheppard's journey. like i said in the beginning, i admire your guys' initiative, because it's something i could never do.

October 8 at 1:44am

Joey Arnold

Matt (& Rhonda),

Rape? No. I apologize. But I was simply contradicting my previous posts. Previously (originally), I said that we are to treat the Bible as if it was first written to people in a different era, a different land, a different culture, a different world (back in the old covenant). But in that last post, I decided to say the exact opposite. I decided to say that we are still in that old covenant, that we are still (contrary to Jeff's words) under the law, Paul. I decided to just say that we are to just take the Word directly. That the Bible was written not just for us but directly to us, in our face (which then means that we don't need application because it's already applied to us because it was written to us, directly). Never mind the cultural gap, the geographical gap, the chronological gap. Never mind trying to relate, to apply. Because can't we just pretend that we can do exactly as the Bible says. Since it's already applied. It's already implied. We assume that we are doing exactly as it says. Or we assume that we can. Excuse me, I just wanted to play Devil's advocate and take the other side to this story. Oh, by the way, we should also cast lots. In the New Testament, it says to not wear makeup. Don't get drunk. Don't invite bad people to your house. There are tons of things in Revelations that would be tough to obey. You can say that book was written about the future but if the Bible is written to us then so is Revelations. And therefore, that book cannot be about the future because it's about us because it was written to us. And we must obey all 66 books (not counting the other books).

Matt,... Read More

And if you don't agree with what I say, just say it. But don't I have the right to my own opinion? Blake hates it when people say this but I'm going to still say "You're right but I'm also right!" Especially about the rape thing. I can say whatever I want. Especially if I am trying. Just kidding. I hate that quote, too. Two contradictions cannot make a right. Two wrongs cannot make a right. We cannot both be right, if we were on different sides. And my opinion can be wrong. I know that it was very uncalled for. You probably didn't know that I was playing Devil's advocate. I really thought that I had an answer worth posting even if you don't understand it, yet. But do I even have the right to play games like that or to use reversed psychology?

Jeff,

Through Jesus, still, you can do your best. Someday, you might become Jewish? But day by day. Who knows where all this will lead. Maybe the Mormons got it right. We should take a trip back down to Utah. Let's keep our eyes open. We should obey something, we should do certain laws if they are applied to us, first. I think we should eat healthy. And the list goes on. But that is only what I think. I will say "But the Bible says....." And I will scream it on the mountaintops kabillions of times. Bottom-line, I think the Bible is first a history book, and second, something we can steal from. We can steal the principles from the history, the stories, and give it brand new life in this modern Weird Al world. But if I have not love then I am just reduced down to plain nuked oatmeal with colorless books.

How can we keep the Torah?

I know that we can keep the Torah (or moreover, the whole Bible) but how can we? The answer to that question still has to rest in where we fit in God's time-line, His agenda. Is there a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament? Moreover, is there a difference between the God of the Old and the God of the New? Ok, I take that back because God never changes in character or in principles or in attributes or in attitude. I take that back. But is there a difference between what God did in the Old and what God did in the New? What's difference between what Jesus did in the Old and what He did in the New? What's the difference between what the Holy Spirit did in the Old and what He did in the New?

If there is a difference in one thing then there would also have to be a difference in another.

If God did things differently in the Old than He did in the New, then does God's people also do things differently, moreover? If there is a difference in what He did in the Old than in the New, then are we just going to do what they did in the Old or are to instead do what they did in the New? Or do you really think that there is no difference, that both God and God's people both did the same in the Old Testament and in the New Testament? If the commandments were the same in the Old and in the New then God's people had to do the same, too, moreover, or likewise! When you compare the Old with the New, what do you get? The principles are the same, for it's the same God, but are the programs different, or the specific commandments different?

If we are still in the first covenant then we should go with that. But did not Jesus come to bring a new covenant? Does not "Testament" mean "Covenant?" Would not the Old Testament be focused on the old covenant and the New Testament be focused on the new covenant? I know that Jesus is coming again to set up His kingdom, which means closure for that new covenant. I know that this new covenant is still under construction. But has not the new covenant started already?

Ronnie,

I went back to the top of this page, to your original post. I was reading it again. I like what you are saying. I think that we should all talk about what Jesus did in the New Testament. Let's talk about what Paul did. What all the disciples did. What the Apostles did. What the followers did. What the early churches, starting with Acts, were doing. What Peter did. Let's look at what they did. Moreover, let's try looking at what they did not do. Let's try figuring out why they did not do certain things. Especially the things that Jesus did not do.

Why did Jesus not do certain things?

October 8 at 3:32am · Delete

Rhonda Elmatti

Yay! Everything Matt said was exactly what I was wondering in regards to changing the law's punishment. I thought maybe I could get away with saying it in very few words, I was wrong. I'd like to think maybe Ronnie understood what I was getting at.

Joey - I don't know you, you don't know me. Don't you think, as we are two strangers, playing the ... Read Moredevil's advocate could be potentially damaging or even detrimental to my walk or maybe even lack of a walk with God? I understand the thrill of debate and there is at times nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate but when you're speaking about God and making completely false statements (God wants to rape you) that speak in complete opposition of his character, you should expect to get a rise out of people. In fact, when you play devils advocate I would figure you're wanting that rise out of people, but, I would interject that speaking against God's character to a stranger in front of a number of other strangers is a terrible idea.
So, Joey, I've read all of your comments here and I devised you were speaking precariously and there was no way you meant and believed everything you said as you mentioned, you completely contradict yourself. My only hope is that you understand the danger of speaking in any way other than in truth. Despite that fact that I understood your position the statement still stings. God is my father and the love of my life, it offends me when people make false statements about him.

October 8 at 5:41am

Joey Arnold

Connection.

I don't know if I'm being damaging but it sure does feel that way, and rape could only be worse. But if one thing is false then the other should follow. If I say something that is obviously evil (don't ask me why) then why won't you then throw out the related thoughts in that particular comment? Why won't you connect the dots and say "If this one thing is obviously fallacy then these other things, hmmmm, I don't know....." But everything I was saying was on a train of thought. As soon as you connect all those dots, you would get the wrong picture, you would be on the wrong train.

If you notice one false idea, that God must rape us, one dot in a picture or one cart to a train, then why would you not reject the rest of the train and jump off, why won't you reject the other dots, the whole picture, and run the opposite direction?... Read More

Rhonda,

False statements come in packages. If one thought is wrong, like God resorting to rape, then why the related ideas not be? You asked if you should be stoned, and I answered with a yes. I basically just answered with an over-the-top yes. I exaggerated possible truth. If we were to believe that God may just strike us down dead when we run too far away from God then we may disqualify Him from being forgiving. That is why He died for us. Not only would God not rape us, but rather, we have already raped him, I mean, we have already cheated on Him, as did Gomer to prophet Hosea (as seen in the book of Hosea: http://www.teamcrossworld.com/blog/2009/07/hosea-an-interesting-story-of-prostitution/). That book, Hosea, in the Old Testament, was an illustration of God's grace. Hosea's wife, Gomer, was a prostitute, but God commanded Hosea to marry her. She may have not raped people but close enough.

Jesus grace over Father justice.

I believe that the Old Testament emphasizes and illustrates God the Father in the color of justice over the waves of grace. God is love. Love is both justice on the left and grace on the right. Since we read left to right, we will first see God's justice. As a Heavenly Father, His children, Israel, were in need of the law. Children must be told what to do. They do not have as much freedom to make decisions. Parents will often tell kids to brush their teeth, clean their room, time for dinner, do this, point blank, right now, in this particular way. As our Father, God told His Nation to not steal, and to clean up their room, so to speak. And God spank His kids, too. Being stoned was an act of love, specifically one of justice. Love cannot exist without justice. Heaven cannot exist without Hell.

The New Testament then made the transition into grace, as Jesus and the Holy Spirit became emphasis in this last part (this New Testament). When I was a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things (1 Cor.13:11). The law, specifically in the Old, was mainly set as this school-master: http://biblebrowser.com/romans/2-20.htm.

The law was mainly there to be that mirror, so that we can see that we need Jesus.

If we are to grow up then we should then be given more mature freedom to make decisions to what we do. As we grow up, we become more in-tuned with the spirit of the law. The mere words to the law was for children, those who are too young to understand the spirit, or as Paul calls it, meat. If the spirit guides you back to certain laws then you should do that. If you are led to follow the law in a certain way then you should do that. I don't mean that we are to just do whatever we emotionally feel like. Rather, I'm saying that it's possible, as we know God's Word, that we will know it, spiritually, when God speaks to us:

Through the good kind of fear: through the spirit: can we be led towards the right direction in what we do, say, think, etc: http://bible.cc/psalms/111-10.htm.

How we are to follow Jesus, depends on, first, how we look at Him, at how we define Love's justice and grace. It really depends on how we see justice and grace together, in how the relate, in how they work together, in how God balances the two, and in how we cannot through our strength.

Emphasize Love's grace over justice!

October 8 at 9:10am · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Joey, seriously, now we're raping God? You're starting to offend people. It's probably not your intention to do so, but maybe instead of saying what you don't mean, start only saying what you actually mean. It'd save everyone a lot of useless reading. Besides that, I'm not sure this is the best place to hone your writing skills- you can create a ... Read Morepost on your own site for that.
I don't mind you being involved in this discussion, but I'd like it if you'd be a little more coherent and used less words- as I said, try only saying what you mean. I'm not trying to come down on you buddy, but whether you meant it like that or not, you did more or less imply through your words that God wants to rape my friend. I have to put my foot down somewhere.

October 8 at 10:25am

Joey Arnold

But if I am saying what is hypothetical truth then it is still very much an illustration and therefore very much what I mean within the purpose for which it stands.

October 8 at 11:13am · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Alright, to answer Rhonda/Matt's questions...

First of all, God was setting up a judicial system for Israel. 'An eye for an eye/Tooth for a tooth' ruling for example was given so that if someone wrongs you the Sanhedrin or courts would know just how severely they could punish someone who wronged another. That is to say, the wrong that has been done to you is the maximum punishment that could be doled out on the person who wronged you. Does that make sense?
(A side note, Eye/Tooth principle was never considered a physical extraction so much as a monetary one. Regardless of whether or not this is exactly how the Scripture reads, that's how it was acted out. The argument goes something like: if someone breaks your arm and it takes six weeks to heal, how could the offender's arm be broken to the exact same fracture so that it's just as bad, but no worse? Whereas the Sanhedrin could look at the monetary damage done- via loss of work and doctor's fees- and extract that from the offender.)
That being noted, Jesus brought clarity to the Torah- and at times He even made it more stringent. For the at hand example, see Matthew 5:38-42. Jesus didn't just tell us to take our punishment from the court, but for the sake of an evil person, we shouldn't resist and freely give more than we owe them. In fact when it comes to the Torah, Jesus rarely, if ever, loosened it- generally he does quite the opposite.... Read More
God didn't plan on us never sinning when He gave us His Torah. It was given so that we could DEAL with our sin. That's why the sacrificial system was instituted. If God always expected us to be 100% perfect, then why'd He give us a system to deal with our sin?
That said, the commandments about dishonoring your parents, about adultery, breaking Sabbath- those have to do with unrepentant hearts. Using modern language, repeat offenders who don't learn from their mistakes. So as this continues, eventually these people get brought before the court or even the Sanhedrin who exact a sentence upon them, based on a certain minimum number of witnesses who they themselves had to meet certain qualifications- the maximum penalty which is death by stoning. But again, that is the MAXIMUM.

Another thing to remember is that we're not in Israel under their Torah-observant judicial system. Actually, neither is Israel. Nor was Israel back when Jesus was around- which is why they had to appeal the Roman authority to try and kill Him. This, subsequently, is why Paul had to ostracize people in 1 Corinthians 5-6. He didn't have the governmental authority to stone them. There wasn't a full Sanhedrin he could take them before. What I'm trying to get at here, is that those laws were for a judicial system. No one person could rise up and legally stone someone. Paul was working around his lack of a Torah-observant government.
Under the right context though (Israel or an Israel-governed nation that is completely Torah observant, with a Sanhedrin and all the bells and whistles), is death by another means changing Torah? I suppose I would say yes, it is. Stoning was a genius practice, because it was a mass killing a person, so that no one person would have to feel guilty for 'throwing the switch'. However! If someone is wrongly executed, the person (or persons- I'm not in full understanding of this yet) who initiated the stone throwing procession is to have the same sentence dropped (thrown) on his own head.
So justice versus grace... Let's tie this all together with John 8- the woman who is allegedly caught in adultery. Read John 8, then read Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 17:5-7 and 19:15-20 (and for bonus points, Jeremiah 17:13). Then get back to me if it was grace or the Torah that set that woman free.
I honestly was terrified of following the Torah because of these exact concerns- but once you understand the context of these commandments, stuff starts to make way more practical sense. I might note- the less you understand about Torah, the less you understand about the New Testament. And I don't say that in a mean way at all.

October 8 at 12:06pm

Joey Arnold

Jurisdiction was a program. If the Bible was written to us then we would be in that context and therefore wouldn't even need to look at context because we would already understand it.

Deuteronomy (law, again) emphasized justice. But John 8, oh no, that is not directly justice.

If you were to build a house, you would start with the foundation. If... Read More you were doing music, go back to the classical music. If you want to know how to live, you must first understand (following salvation) the Old Testament!

October 8 at 12:34pm · Delete

Jeff Kurtz

Ronnie,

I have to admit that I may never have time to read all the comments her, but I read your post and a selection of the comments.

Just to sum up what I think you are saying...... Read More

We are to follow the law. We do this as an outward expression of an inward conviction we hold to love and honor God. The law hasn't changed, but we have been redeemed of it's cost. We now follow it out of a desire to express our love and gratitude for the Savior and Creator, not out of fear of death. Is that it?

Btw, I am really appreciative that you took the time to post and comment here about this. Your perspective is great. I think it is an excellent opportunity for each of us to think about what we believe, and how we show love for God.

Great job, and thanks.

Jeff

October 8 at 1:13pm

Ronald Gilden

Jeff, you can't leave this discussion right as you're getting to the meat of it. Bravo by the way- I'm so glad you brought up Galatians and the other points you did.

First, let's clear up some misunderstands...
Rabbi Shaul never changed his name. His Jewish name was Shaul, but when he wrote and spoke with Gentiles he was known as Paul. Similarly, Yeshua (Jesus) was called Iesous when written in Greek. Shimon (Simon) was also called Kefa (Peter). But they didn't change their names (I've heard that Shaul's Jewish name would translate something like 'the haughty walk of prostitutes' which might explain why he wisely went by Paul when addressing Gentiles...).
Acts 23:6 Paul says, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee...' He never stopped being a Pharisee. But you are correct! He didn't belong to the same sect. Pharisees had different beliefs. In fact, Acts 15:5 points out a sect of Pharisees who were 'Christians' (meaning they believed in Yeshua). Pharisees weren't a bad thing. In fact, their beliefs were closer to our beliefs than the rest of Judaism at the time. Not to add fuel to the fire, but I'll even say that Yeshua was a Pharisee.... Read More

As for Galatians and Romans. When you quote about Circumcision, it's imperative to recognize that Paul was speaking about a conversion policy- that is, Jews believed only Jews were saved, therefore you had to convert to Judaism to become saved. This is what Paul was opposing. He essentially was coming down on them for trying to earn salvation through conversion. Were that possible, then Christ died for nothing. In that Romans passage, he's comparing that a righteous Gentile can act like a Jew without converting, but an unrighteous Jew becomes more like a (unsaved) Gentile through his sinful actions. His point in both Galatians and Romans is that if you're earning your salvation by conversion, then you are rejecting Christ, and therefore you are still under the condemnation of the Law.

Can you explain what it means to not be under the Law? If you're 'free' from it, then why are you still keeping some of it? You don't murder, you don't lie (I imagine), you don't endorse or commit adultery, and all the other ten commandments (Ex. 20:1-17). I imagine you don't practice sorcery or bestiality, right (Ex. 22:18-19)? Even by assembling to worship you're still observing part of the Torah. And if you're free from the Torah, why would you love God with all your heart and soul (Deut. 6:5)?

We aren't under the condemnation of the Law. But we are under grace. Meaning that we aren't going to hell because we sin. The wages of sin is death correct? But Jesus already atoned for that, didn't He?
'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?' (Rom. 6:1-2)
This is the newness! We don't have to fear the condemnation, and we are free from it.

So let me ask, what exactly are you free to do?

Love you friend.

October 8 at 1:26pm

Ronald Gilden

Ack, multiple Jeffs!
Jeff K.

Thank you. I would say, more or less, that you nailed it on the head. God told us how to be a holy people, and yet we're all trying to grasp at it like it's some impossible thing. It's only impossible because we don't actually look to where He said 'be holy for I am holy' (Lev. 11:44, 19:2, 20:7, 20:26). How cruel was Peter when he said to his readers to be obedient and holy without explaining exactly what that entails (1 Pet. 1:14-16). We view it as some distant concept that we're all striving for, without realizing it just means to be 'set apart'. And God told us exactly how to do that.
... Read More
But I thank you for your kind comment and for taking time to read the post (don't worry about the comments... most of them are nonsense...).

Much love brother.

October 8 at 1:38pm

Joey Arnold

10 Things I Hate About Commandments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1kqqMXWEFs. Just kidding. I do not hate the law. Did Paul invent Christianity? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCVpiZo5jAk&NR=1.

Why keep the Torah: http://www.tallitministries.com/PDF/keepTorah.pdf. Or: http://www.therefinersfire.org/should_gentiles_keep_torah.htm. Follow it in every way, exactly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FY35YbD3ps. Some laws in the USA can seem just as out of place as those in the Torah: http://bible.org/seriespage/jesus-heals-man-pool-bethesda-john-51-18.

Jn.5:10: "So the Jews said to the man who was cured, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to carry your mat?'" But was it still ok for Jesus to heal that cripple or did he break the Sabbath (v.16)? http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john5.htm. http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/Is%20Jesus%20Breaking%20the%20Sabbath.pdf. http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-john5-18.htm. ... Read More

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments in Hebrew):

Here is what we must keep: I mean, shouldn't we keep all 613 of these rules or laws? http://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm.

I was still looking for a video that would talk about how Christians would follow all 613 laws. I am still looking for that. I mean, if we really love God then we should all follow every single one of them, point blank.

October 8 at 2:52pm · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

ok, so this blog is turning into something i haven't the breath to keep up with.

paul's aramaic, hebrew, chinese, russian, and american name is irrelevant. paul, when calling himself a pharisee in acts he isn't claiming that sect, but rather using his former identity as a tool for reasoning. i won't discuss that further because that too is irrelevant. i just wanted to clarify who paul was, being not a pharisee in his new life but a disciple of christ, not a disciple of another pharisee.

and ron, you are right about conversion. be careful how you refer to my writing though. when i quoted that verse it was to make it clear that if you live under the law you will be judged BY the law. so when paul says we are free from the law, there is now light shed on the issue. you ask about being "free" from the law, and my response is "which law?". by no means am i set apart any more by following the dietary or "clean" laws or even sacrificial ordinances that were practiced thousands of years ago. but i AM set apart by the spirit of god, by following god's commandments, the law, i say, specifically referring to the 10, which are summed up into 2.... Read More

this is why i brought up the different uses of the word law, but you guys toss that around. it makes a big difference on how you use the word. if by law you mean torah, than it is hard to say i am free from it because the commands that jesus taught verbatim are also concealed in those books. you see?

October 8 at 7:39pm

Jeffrey Walters

and no i won't fear condemnation, but i will be careful to put the law on a pedestal. you seem to love the commandments, which is great. but dietary benifits should be the reason we uphold the law of old. and by no means would i sacrifice any animal if the temple were rebuilt. our lord has already taken our place. all we have left is our commitment, our lives.

i've noticed that a man (or woman) who is passionate about following the torah is just as hypocritical as i am, if not more. thank god i am not judged by those things.

and this. deception is widespread. i pray it hasn't consumed me. my point is that i see a lot of the books davey shep was reading and even read them, and think "is the world really coming to this?" as in, wow, the last thing the the body needs is more rules. this is my opinion, and i hope my experiences are enough to make you think. some of you might be like "wow, he just dissed on everything i believe" but i only comment on these blogs because it worries me. my heart pounds and i sweat like a pig when i see or hear people preaching this. i hate to see us (as christians) not developing in christ but stagnant, and the world is watching. i also know what it is like to be on the outside and to view the ritualistic and legalistic christian as a fool.... Read More

if i should follow the levitical laws, i have yet to hear a sound argument for why. maybe this is a problem, maybe not. i try to eat clean foods (leviticus says nothing about MSG, haha) and am sure to stay clear of a woman on her period, so tell me something i don't know. i will never sacrifice an animal, and the spirit is by far sufficient in every way. EVERY way. he tells me secrets, like ....

"comment on that there blog..."

October 8 at 7:59pm

Joey Arnold

1. On one hand, I want to eat healthy. Dietary tips just so happens to be in the Good Book (Old Testament, specifically): especially since "Jesus is in my heart!" So, does Jesus want those extra pounds?

2. But on the other hand, when I read in James about the emphasis in Revolution Hawaii, I mean, in really reaching out, in really loving God ... Read Morethrough loving others (which is the greatest commandment), that just makes me want to go wild, makes me want to scream, makes me want to get out there and be Jesus to the elderly, to the broken, to the children (New Testament's love's grace's party emphasis): moreover!

October 8 at 9:24pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

They obeyed parents out of fear, lest they be stoned. It was simpler and to the point. It was point blank. Turn or burn. Do it or else.

But now we honor parents out of faith. Jesus would even say "Blessed are those who have not seen but still do follow."

But even as we keep an Old Testament law "Obey your parents," we do so in different ways, depending on the situation. We do not treat our parents like they are from 800 BC. They are not Jewish. But we still apply it.

October 8 at 9:43pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

I don't know if God wants me to just follow all 613 laws but God sure didn't want His People to because the Jews are not perfect, they can't keep all those rules because if they did then we wouldn't need Jesus.

October 8 at 10:14pm · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Jeff (W),

I understand if you don't have the time to carry on in this conversation. But I do want you to know that I'm absolutely appreciating your participation in it. Regardless of our differing views, you absolutely hold my respect and friendship. I'm not trying to wear you out, I'm just trying to work out my beliefs with you. Iron sharpens iron and all that. Please believe I'm saying none of this out of frustration or anger.

(While I disagree with you about whether Paul was a Pharisee or not, you're correct- it's besides the point. Let's move on...)... Read More

You make a distinction in the Law that is not found in the New Testament. I say 'Torah' because that's what the Apostles were calling the Law- all of it, without distinction. Paul considered the ENTIRE Torah good and holy (Rom. 7:14) and he delighted in it (Rom. 7:22) just as King David did in Psalm 119. My point is this- he didn't throw it away the moment he met Jesus, nor any time after that. That would make Jesus a false prophet and Paul as well.

Is Jesus not the Word that became flesh? Is that same Word not the Word of God which spoke to Moses, giving him the Torah? Moses didn't make up the commandments- God, via Jesus did. So how is it that Jesus would contradict Himself? Is Jesus not the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8)? Better yet, why would Jesus establish His precepts and righteous ways only so that He could later come and go through all that death and suffering simply to get rid of the rules He Himself created? Why does it seem like God is at war with Himself by this view?
Before the New Testament had even been fully written (and certainly not circulated), Paul wrote to Timothy telling him, 'you must continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete. thoroughly equipped for every good work.' (2 Tim. 14:17)
What Scripture is it that can instruct us in righteousness? They only had the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings- what we call the Old Testament. And yet most of us disregard it as useless.

Do I put the Torah on a pedestal? Shouldn't God's ways be respected? Am I above Moses' feelings towards God's Torah? (Deut. 4:5-8)? Joshua's (Joshua 1:7-9)? King David's feelings for it (for humor's sake, read all of Psalms 119)? Or what about Paul's absolute love for it (Acts 24:14, 25:8, Rom. 7:12, 7:22, 7:25, 2 Tim. 3:14-17)? I will openly oppose Biblical scholars on this matter any day, but when it comes to the aforementioned people? Who am I to say I know better than them?

Out of curiosity, what is your personal understanding of Matthew 5:17-19? What about when the prophet Isaiah prophesied about Gentile believers keeping Sabbath, sacrificing at the Temple, and the being part of the covenant in a time still to come (Is. 56)? Isaiah prophesied about Jesus dying for us just three chapters prior- so either he's a true prophet of God, or...?
Or what about the prophet Zechariah who said that in a time to come (presumably the Messianic Kingdom age) all nations will have to go to Jerusalem with their offerings for the Feast of Tabernacles, otherwise those nations won't receive rain (Zechariah 14:16-21)?
Not to mention the Feasts the apostles kept (Acts 2:1, 18:21, 20:6, 20:16, 1 Cor. 5:8, 16:8) all of which involved some kind of animal sacrifice. Paul specifically attempted to make a sin offering in Acts 21 (:26-27) upon the completion of his Nazarite vow (Num. 6) before getting attacked by a mob.
I know I'm being heavy handed, but I'm trying to illustrate how much the Bible doesn't permit the dismissal of either the Torah, or the Prophets- or the Old Testament as a whole. Upon Jesus' resurrection, none of the Apostles pulled out their Torah scrolls and threw them into a fire saying, 'Guess we don't need these anymore...'
So what would cause you to do that with your Bible?

I really do hope you continue in this conversation. If you'd rather do it via message, I'd be more than happy to do that just as well. But once more, I completely understand if you haven't the time. You are loved regardless.

October 9 at 2:07pm

Joey Arnold

I did a sermon on 2 Timothy 3:16 once: I discovered that Paul was referring specifically to the Old Testament, since those were all they had: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3&version=MSG.

Now, I still have to wonder why God didn't give Adam and Eve the law? What was the point of waiting several hundreds of years? Why did ... Read MoreGod have to wait for Abraham? Why couldn't God give Adam His covenant, His promise? Why did God have to wait until Moses was old to give out the law? And better yet, why did God let Israel have kings when God was suppose to be their king? Why did God, through Moses, permit divorce in that law when God hates divorce? Why was there a world flood when the world was going to end up just as evil as before the flood, if not more evil, anyways? Why did Jesus, God's son, have to die for us if they already had the law, they already had burnt offerings, sin offerings, that were to cover up their sins for a year at a time? And why would God let Israel fall 70 AD?

October 9 at 2:34pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Blake, the law should still be applied.

October 9 at 4:22pm · Delete

Blake Webb

i shouldn't have posted. booboo snaps.

October 9 at 5:21pm

Joey Arnold

But Blake's story worked!

October 9 at 5:35pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Beg Blake to post it back.

October 9 at 5:37pm · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

i feel as though i've been misunderstood, and this always happens on posts. it even happens in live debates, so maybe i'm not good at this.

first off, i have made it clear in an earlier post that the torah, law, etc, is good and holy. when i mention putting the law on a pedestal, notice how i use it in context of how i feel. i am quick to notice how man can make law god, and not god, god. law has a purpose-to make me conscious of my sin. the more aware i am of my sin, the better my persistence becomes in being holy, or set apart.

now, about these posts. ron, you make valid points, but it seems like your asking me the questions now. i'm not sure if i like that because i don't care about this as much as you do. i will try and answer some, or at least the relevant ones that can maybe change some opinions.... Read More

this matter is and was never about whether the law is good, or even if jesus, paul, or santa clause was under the torah. this is about hebrews 10:18. this is about not being under the law for a million reasons. for me because i am not a jew (1) and (2) because i am under the spirit, which does not lead me to follow the torah. in fact, the spirit seems to lead me to even better dietary methods and even more efficient bodily sacrifices that those ancient ones in leviticus. this is my opinion, and god comforts me in that. i am also comforted to know that since i am not under the law, i am not judged by the law. i am judged according to the spirit. these are scriptural concepts, and they are in turn with life, today, even now...

October 9 at 10:21pm

Joey Arnold

But pigs are still yucky, Blake.

October 9 at 11:25pm · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

another thought.

you mentioned a lot of references, so when i looked up one (zechariah) i was disappointed because you seemed to have missed something. i use the NIV, so maybe i'm missing something. but let's gather the nutrients, eh? in context, we see that in these days Jerusalem, god's city, will be exalted above its' surrounding enemies. more importantly, it says the ones who have attacked her will celebrate the feast of tabernacles. we would be making a bad assumption if we were to assume these enemies were merely there to sacrifice anything simply for the sake of partaking in the ceremony, or holiday. a better analyzation would be that the enemies would be adhering to the god of the universe, thus, it wouldn't matter WHAT they were doing in Jerusalem, it would have to be WHY they were there. they would be there to simply praise him. this series of statements zechariah uses is powerful but symbolic. for instance, he mentions that all who fought jeruselem would rot while standing. we would be foolish to get caught up in descriptions instead of understanding the implication of fighting with god's people.

you refer to old testament prophesy, but for me (not everybody) this is an easy argument, mainly because i can understand how prophets (minor and major) could not fully understand what the day of the lord would be like entirely. their prophecy (which remember, prophecy is sometimes not specific or literal) paints a picture. when you paint a picture, you normally only cover a vague illuminated resemblance of what is actually being conveyed. with prophecy, no prophet could have FULLY understood how god would come as a man and sacrifice himself on a cross, specifically as it happened, then rise again, only to come back gloriously in a 2nd coming (aka the day). in the same way, i don't imagine that any man or woman prior to christ could imagine NOT sacrificing with their hands in order to be holy unto the lord. thank god for clarifying these details, i say, and for reconciling all misunderstanding by making one ultimate sacrifice that would cleanse us for eternity. this was only made possible by a high priest, who's priesthood would never die, and came from the father. this priest, this king, has also prepared for us a place in the most holy of holy places, so we now have DIRECT access to the holy god of all time. this direct access, via his spirit, could never require any ordinances (even his own) or else it wouldn't be direct access. hmm...... Read More

and i admire the law for it's ability to keep a man or woman kosher. that's not to say its necessary, for there is a more necessary and sometimes more difficult road we must now take. i am always quick to question you, again and again, with what this style of living has produced IN you. and also ready for any argument for how, by being under the torah, you have been made any more holy that the person who only listens to what the spirit may have for them. oh, and what about me? would i be making progress to submit to the law and therefor become subject to it?

October 9 at 11:36pm

Jeffrey Walters

i'm not sure what blake posted, but it makes me think what this looks like as a story. bear with me.

meet sammy. growing up in that old fashioned home with lots of chores, sammy kept getting in trouble and could never keep up with all the rules. sammy, we can say, was a little punk, and even a little dumb, but nonetheless his dad was strict on teaching him to be obedient.

then one day sammy and his dad moved.... Read More

thankfully, at this new suburban home, dad decided to strike a new deal with sammy since he was now 12 years old. this age seemed reasonable, having taught sammy all he could with duties and restrictions. the new deal was this: sammy was free to do whatever he wanted, under one condition... love his father, keeping in mind all that he had learned, or else be kicked out. but sammy was stumped, for this new house had all new hallways and a much different backyard. dad had refurnished and there were also new rules to break. this was tricky, but with the spirit shed from his father of freedom he felt a sense of power in order to stay good. so sammy, getting taller and becoming smarter and smarter every day, did what his father asked even though times had changed. his dad, meanwhile, nodded his head and even helped him when he messed up. sammy, you could say, was growing up.

up, up, and away
by jeff walters, haha

October 9 at 11:55pm

Jeffrey Walters

christ by no means contradicted himself. i never once said anything like this, and of course he was a jew and HAD to live the law perfectly because he is the law. otherwise he could not fulfill it. but see, where you leave off is where i pick up. christ died and has freed me from this very law that god established for his people. now, there is no ... Read Moreseparation of jew and greek, for we can all approach god on the same term: grace. this is why paul was never interested in bringing gentiles under the law. why bring someone under it so that they are then judged by it?

you (and those with your same ideology) claim to just be "following rules" and back it with scripture, but the entire bible seems to back the idea that in christ all things are new. this is a NEW covenant, not a reshaped, reverberated, or revamped one. this new covenant is also one that emphasizes a more powerful and more efficient "rule", and that is, sacrifice your life. it is, abide by the spirit, who will counsel you, convict you, and empower you. each decision, in this new life, then becomes a moment by moment commitment instead of a

"oh, let me check to make sure i'm not wearing clothes knit with 2 kinds of material."

October 9 at 11:55pm

Jeffrey Walters

brb, gotta take a shower.

October 9 at 11:55pm

Joey Arnold

But you still have to be obedient in faith to follow the law, all of the law, and nothing but the law, or help you God, Jeff.

October 10 at 12:02am · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

i'd rather live in canada

October 10 at 12:18am

Joey Arnold

But how can we follow all 613... Ronnie?

October 10 at 12:58am · Delete

Joey Arnold

Ronnie must of deleted my stories!

October 10 at 9:21pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Now that is a sin.

October 10 at 9:21pm · Delete

Rhonda Elmatti

Joey,

Actually, that's redemption.

With love,... Read More
Rhonda

October 10 at 9:41pm

Joey Arnold

Ignorance!

October 10 at 10:08pm · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Jeff (W),

I appreciate your desire to see personal results from following the Torah. What has Torah observance produced in me? Wow. It's honestly something I'm not even sure how to formulate. It's created an incredible love and appreciation for God's Word. And I mean that. I am at peace knowing the Bible's not at war with itself. Knowing that there's not irrelevant books of the Bible that are simply 'just for the Jews'. Instead I can read it knowing that it all flows together consistently, and that it's all for me. So within me, it's given me a feeling of closeness with God because I'm not rejecting His written Word. Peace, in a word.
But outward? What are visible fruits? I believe that God's really clever. I don't believe for a moment He intended His children to hide their faith by simply keeping their mouths shut. So apart from the obvious things like helping people (needy or otherwise), God didn't leave room for people to guess at whether or not we were His. And I mean this physically. People strive for ministry opportunities, some even go as far as to get tattooed so that they can share their faith (I'm not coming down on you by the way for yours, nor am I implying that's why you have some... though I wouldn't mind learning about them sometime). But as I started eating kosher, as I started to keep Sabbath, as I started to wear tzitzit (Num. 15:38-40)- as I started doing all these various things, I realized there was no possible way I could hide my faith. Meals with unbelievers turn into conversations about God. My reason for not being able to work on Saturday turns into a conversation about God. My daily apparel turns into a conversation about God.
People are trying to figure out ministry opportunities, meanwhile God laid out ahead of time how He wanted His children to look- to be set apart for the rest of the world to know that we (us, you and I) belong to God. God didn't want us to blend in, and He didn't want us to conform to the ways of this world. God wanted us to be distinct 24/7, and wearing a 'Jesus' shirt doesn't even come close.... Read More

I don't follow God's commandments because I believe they'll benefit me physically. I don't believe by eating kosher that I'm more healthy than someone else- I do not do it for physical health. And I certainly don't do it simply to be different- I do it because God says to, and God planned on it making His children different. I do it to walk in God's ways. I do it because I love God, and we love God by following His commandments. But you asked if that makes me any more holy than a person who only listens to the Spirit. If God says that by eating kosher it is making us holy as He is holy (Lev. 11:44), who am I to deny what God calls holiness? I thought you already said (which I agree) the Spirit would never lead us away from the Law? If we are following the Spirit, it (He?) would be leading us to following God's commandments. If someone is led away from God's commandments (which we all agree are holy and good), wouldn't that mean that person is rejecting God's holy ways, and therefore holiness?

Following 'the Spirit' led the Catholic church to declare their authority takes precedence over the Bible. This led them deep into pagan practices and idolatry- which still consumes the Catholic church whether they're aware of it or not. Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness are other off-shoots born from following 'the Spirit' (or 'a spirit' if you'd prefer) which led them to place their own writings above God's Word. Rabbinic Judaism has done this in a fashion, as has (oddly enough) Islam. I'm just trying to show what happens when 'the Spirit' leads a person away from the authority established by the Scriptures.

I am not under the Law, nor am I telling others to place themselves under it. But I do (try to) follow it. I am under God- I am under grace. We're subject to God, we belong to Him- we're not our own and we were bought at a price. So I would absolutely tell you to subject yourself to God, and FOLLOW His ways.

October 10 at 10:12pm

Ronald Gilden

Oh! I forgot to mention!

The Torah wasn't ever just for the Jews alone. As I pointed out in an earlier comment, it was given to the people God saved from Egypt- both the descendants of Jacob AND the mixed multitude. After God saved them, THEN He gave them His commandments and they became known as 'Israel'. Jethro was a Gentile. Rahab was a Gentile. Ruth was a Gentile. If you believed in God then you became a part of Israel.

'One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger [Hebrew word is 'ger'- pretty much the exact equivalent for 'Gentile believer'] who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger [ger] be before the LORD. One law and one custom shall be for you and the stranger [ger] who dwells with you.' (Num. 14:15-16... for further reading, see Ex. 12:49, Lev. 19:18, 19:34, 24:22, Num. 9:14, 15:29, 19:10, 35:15, Deut. 16:14, 24:17-18...)... Read More

Timothy was a Gentile and yet Paul circumcised him. Why would Paul do that to him I wonder?

'Indeed, I Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.' (Gal. 5:2)

Poor Timothy... Paul must have had it out for him.

Humor aside, God intended everyone, once they were saved by grace to keep Torah. This is true throughout the entire Bible. Isaiah prophesied about this.

'Do not let the son of the foreigner [Gentile] who has joined himself to the LORD speak saying, “The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”' and he continues to say 'Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath and holds fast to My covenant- even them I will being to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer... For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.' (Is. 56ish)

By the way, as Jesus noted in Matthew 21, this hasn't happened yet.

Speaking of covenants...
I completely agree with your take on having direct access to the everlasting God. But you're wrong. It did require something. We all sacrificed our Messiah for that benefit. So no- direct access didn't happen without an ordinance.

The problem with the old covenant is with us, the people, not with God and not with His commandments. If Christ died to set us free from the Law that He created, then why did He institute it in the first place? Why would He lay down His own life just to undo something He could have just NOT done in the first place. Did God screw up? And if by dying on the cross Christ did annul the Law, then that makes Him a liar and a false prophet. He already stated that it wasn't going away 'til heaven and earth pass away, and we've already established that it's not just for the Jews, so then why, by Jesus' own words, is it still around? Gentiles already had access to God beforehand.

Finally, why, throughout the entire Torah, did God keep using the words 'lasting ordinance', 'statute forever', 'throughout all your generations', etc..., if He didn't mean it?

October 10 at 10:16pm

Joey Arnold

After three years of Bible College, I have been reduced to a status below Jeff, a man incapable of telling a story, a boy who has made this page to be full of nonsense.

Since this is all I got, I really must be a nobody. My talent is in my writings. I am no Michael Jordan. I am no Michael Jackson. I am no Bill Gates. I am no Jesus. I am just ... Read Moreoatmeal. But even that is pure destruction. Never mind how it makes me feel, my whole life, to be described as an alien, just a bog joke. I am just one big offensive terrorist. And if my very best is your garbage.

Then I really need to end me.

October 10 at 10:18pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

I will repost my story. That story took hours to post and now it is gone. I am so upset. That story was illustartion. You must be closed minded.

October 10 at 10:22pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Torah = all 66 books?

October 10 at 10:43pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

My story = about Jeff's Sammy.

October 10 at 10:44pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Bible is for you = to you?

October 10 at 10:46pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Ron, but I want to be like you, we have to keep all the rules, whether that be just one, two, ten, 613, or more. We have to make a real website with all the eternal ordinances that we must do so that we can do them!

October 10 at 10:58pm · Delete

Rhonda Elmatti

So, Ronnie, if I don't feel as if I'm being "led" to follow the law (not that I'm dishonoring anyone, or killing people, but I think I ate pork last week even though that's not the sorta thing I typically do, and you know I don't keep the sabbath), then I would figure according to you I'm not really being led by the spirit, right?
Cause if I were in fact in tune, I'd be following the law.
And, if in fact I'm not being led by The Spirit, what am I being led by?
So, essentially, it feels like maybe you would be thinking that perhaps what I'm doing & living is actually not good enough. Which makes me wonder with your logic here, where does that put me when time runs out?
... Read More
I think I know that you know that my relationship with the big guy is solid. But your logic doesn't necessarily seem logical.

October 10 at 11:13pm

Joey Arnold

Rhonda, now, I believe in progressive sanctification. And you can call me crazy, and I could be wrong about this, but I really do think that you are being led through Jesus............

October 10 at 11:49pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Law = mirror. Sin = dirt. Jesus = soap. We = face. The dirt is on our face. We need the mirror to see the dirt on our face. The mirror is useless without soap. Soap is misguided without the mirror. The soap is also like the spirit. You cannot have one without the other.

Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!

Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.

October 11 at 12:59am · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Rhonda,

I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?

Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?

'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)

In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.

Love you.

October 11 at 1:23am

Jeffrey Walters

in my last post, i kinda sounded mean, so i'm going to repost, without as much fluff.

- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More

hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

October 11 at 1:23am

Ronald Gilden

Joey, how do you have these spurts of coherency and being perfectly lovable?

October 11 at 1:25am

Jeffrey Walters

i believe the law has its specific purpose, is all. that's basically the root of it all. the best way i can explain it is that the spirit is the outcome of the law, and i have that as a gentile. it teaches me what not to eat, and how to act toward god and other people, in a much better way than the law could ever do. you may ask, "well why aren't ... Read Moreyou led to follow torah, if it's good, then?" and my best response is probably "i'll only confuse you, go ask god."

in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).

October 11 at 1:38am

Ronald Gilden

Jeff,

It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)

On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.

I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.

October 11 at 1:39am

Joey Arnold

Ron, always ask before deleting my Jeff Sammy stories, you know that does better than a wife cooking chicken noodle soup, but I guess, since the law didn't tell you so, that you just didn't know any better.

Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......

Or Blake Webb,... Read More

Or Santa Clause,

Or Jesus, or Ronnie,

By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........

........with application?

October 11 at 1:45am · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Ha, Joey, not only did the Law not tell me to delete it, but neither did the Spirit, so what does that mean?

I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.

I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.

As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)

October 11 at 2:15am

Joey Arnold

Specifics = no private matter!

October 11 at 2:31am · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

ron, the scripture is specific on how christ was a jew and only through the law could he have fulfilled it. christ wasn't "bothering" with the shadows, or law, he was perfecting it, bringing to fruition the fulfillment of prophecy. and because i am not under the provision of the law doesn't mean i am doing what is right in my own eyes. i am under the supervision of the spirit, who frees me from the written code that has enslaved us up until christ.

the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.

romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More

christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.

October 11 at 2:05pm

Jeffrey Walters

oh, and i love you too ron, but of course in a manly, holy kind of way.

October 11 at 2:07pm

Joey Arnold

Ronnie, your pledge to the spirit contradicts with your direct interpretation to God's Word. Why do you need spiritual guidance when you can have God's Word? Ronnie, if you believe in following the Torah then why would you need the spirit? The Torah is black and white. It was written to you. You can read it. And you can do it. End of discussion. ... Read MoreYou do not need the spirit because the Bible is simple. I am actually very confused. I am pretty sure that you were against the spirit earlier in this discussion. But now you are for it. You sound like a politician. You should try picking sides.

October 11 at 10:51pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Jeff, oh, and by the way, yes, I wish I could love you and Ronnie and all y'all right back, but I am just too pure evil to do that, so, no oatmeal, no sugar, no love, no soup for you, just pure evil Joey for you, evil Barney, evil rage, even through I am working on trying to be nicer to people in life, personally I pray and try, each day, several times a day, literally, and I hate small talk, but, I am trying to love and be nice and understanding but we will see.

Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.

Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More

BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!

October 12 at 1:23am · Delete

Joey Arnold

Ronnie Gilden's Why I Keep The Torah note was at this following link: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146150702946&id=562676138&ref=mf

October 12 at 1:38am · Delete

Joey Arnold

For if I do not continue then I will lose my salvation (Salvation Army doctrine #9 out of 11)!

October 12 at 2:12am · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Jeff, we're so close in our beliefs...

We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.

Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.

But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.

He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.

'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)

Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.

Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.

Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?

'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)

October 12 at 12:30pm

Ronald Gilden

By the bye, if the Law is only to be acted out spiritually, what are the 'Least' spiritual commandments Jesus was referring to?

October 12 at 12:33pm

Joey Arnold

Ronnie, if washing dishes is like following the Torah then why would anybody object?

October 12 at 12:41pm · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

i would object, only because the scripture i provide is clear about why the law was given and how we are to view it. the spirit brings to life, the law kills.

and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).

ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More

i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.

October 12 at 5:48pm

Joey Arnold

Law = training wheels! Spirit = bike!

October 12 at 6:16pm · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Jeff, come on man, I thought you read my note...
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,

2 John 1:5-6
... Read More



'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'

Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.

And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'

I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.

October 12 at 6:26pm

Joey Arnold

Ronnie Gilden does not have to tell Jeffrey Walters to keep the law! Ronnie Gilden needs to tell Jeffrey Walters how to keep every single law in the Torah! Ronnie Gilden needs to simply list all the commandments so that Jeffrey Walters can see that we can actually do all the commandments!

October 12 at 6:43pm · Delete

Rhonda Elmatti

Since I've contributed to this conversation I figured it only right that I make clear the way I see things. I know my couple of statements, questions, whatever may have made it seem as if I completely disagree with Ronnie, but the truth is I don't. I'm fairly close to agreeing with him entirely.

Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...

I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.

So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.

I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.

If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.

October 12 at 7:25pm

Joey Arnold

Chastisement = God's children are disciplined, purged, spanked! Follow each of the laws!

Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!

October 12 at 7:36pm · Delete

Ronald Gilden

Joey... when did you become my spokesperson?

October 12 at 7:54pm

Ronald Gilden

Rhonda, you're completely amusing, and thank you.

October 12 at 7:55pm

Rhonda Elmatti

Any time.

October 12 at 7:58pm

Rhonda Elmatti

Just realized I never mentioned that I loved this...

"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"

October 12 at 8:18pm

Joey Arnold

Ronald Gilden needs promotion!

October 12 at 8:20pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Jeffrey Walters is in direct contradiction with Ronald Gilden! Ronald Gilden thinks it is close! Jeffrey Walters, however, knows that they are both on different planets!

October 12 at 10:22pm · Delete

Jeffrey Walters

ron, all due respect, i do read everything you post, even the references. i even read before and after. you gotta love this stuff, although, for some, this kind of debate is deathly. but ya, i haven't missed your point, but rather, i just disagree. fundamentally, i do. i don't disagree out of stubbornness, i just don't see what you are seeing. ... Read Moresometimes i barely can see what protestants see! when i match up your references to mine, i see a full movie, one that runs immaculately and was probably produced by speilberg cuz it has a start AND a finish. the movie doesn't skip around, or confuse the audience.

i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.

October 12 at 11:06pm

Rhonda Elmatti

Jeff,

M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.

All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.

October 12 at 11:55pm

Joey Arnold

Jeffrey Walters is clearly in a different theater all together! Ronnie Gilden is not even in the same city.

October 13 at 11:31am · Delete

Joey Arnold

Sadly enough, those two different theaters, those two different cities with different insides and different beginnings and ends in the plays, those two cannot coexist at the same time!

October 13 at 11:32am · Delete

Joey Arnold

RONNIE GILDEN
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU

WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE

Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!

HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN

Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"

October 14 at 9:22pm · Delete

Joey Arnold

Torah Master!

October 17 at 1:11pm · Delete

Janet Bailey

I can tell with all honesty when I obey, I feel closer and when I don't their are times I have felt hoplessly lost. I think the biggest thing as believeres that we can ask ourselves, is if God came to you and told you to do this... would you be willing? I'm not saying I hold the answer to what is right and what is wrong. I'm just saying you have to... Read More be willing to seek the truth to find it. Our minds are flawed because we are in the world. The answers aren't always in our head but have to be sought out. If you can do something to feel/be closer to God...... why not? Why wouldn't you possibly want to? This is a question that I have dwelled on alot. Alot of the time I find I do things for man or because of man.................. Needless to say where as a result I have felt no reward and completely lost and burdened. But when I do something out of Love for God........... My spirit is lifted and far from dwendelling. Simple and amazing.

Mon at 5:29pm

Joey Arnold

We must follow all the rules!

Mon at 5:45pm · Delete

Janet Bailey

Joey, I don't understand if you are joking or not? Poking fun or being serious? What rules where? ARe you trying to be extreme or make a statement?

Mon at 5:52pm

Blake Webb

hahaha

Yesterday at 6:26pm

Joey Arnold

Spike, but Ronnie must!

Yesterday at 9:37pm · Delete

Spike Arndt

I dont recall ever saying he didnt have to. Simply stating on Janet's wall that you seemed to be mocking ronnies beliefs. you have since corrected this. The reason why it is confusing to others as well, (see janets post above) is that you repeat the same line over and over again. No one is sure if you are sincere or lashing out.

13 hours ago

Jeffrey Walters

this website seems to nail some of the more important scriptures, so i thought i would post.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=588

janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.

3 hours ago

Joey Arnold

Spike, I seriously want to know what God wants us to do. That is the bottom line. I am totally sincere when I say that I want to keep all God's commandments! If we love Him then we will keep His commandments, every single one of them. My only problem is that I do not know what all those commandments are. I need a list of all the rule! More over, I really need help with actually keeping all the rules! I really want to know how to keep all the laws!

6 minutes ago · Delete

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