Joey Arnold People usually know that we should do good! Therefore, that is not the issue. We don't have to always proof that God's way is better! But we should at least do them! And that is the problem! We are not talking about what all the commandment...s are! And farther, we are not even talking about how we are suppose to actually follow them! But that is what I need! That is what I want! I need to know what all the commandments are! And I need to know how to follow them! You have to help me keep the Torah, I am begging you, Spike.
Yours truly and sincerely,
Oatmeal Joey Arnold
Yours truly and sincerely,
Oatmeal Joey Arnold
· · ·
Joey Arnold
Rhonda, now, I believe in progressive sanctification. And you can call me crazy, and I could be wrong about this, but I really do think that you are being led through Jesus............
October 10 at 11:49pm · Delete
Joey Arnold
Law = mirror. Sin = dirt. Jesus = soap. We = face. The dirt is on our face. We need the mirror to see the dirt on our face. The mirror is useless without soap. Soap is misguided without the mirror. The soap is also like the spirit. You cannot have one without the other.
Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!
Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.
Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!
Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.
October 11 at 12:59am · Delete
Ronald Gilden
Rhonda,
I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?
Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?
'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)
In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.
Love you.
I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?
Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?
'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)
In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.
Love you.
October 11 at 1:23am
Jeffrey Walters
in my last post, i kinda sounded mean, so i'm going to repost, without as much fluff.
- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More
hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More
hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
October 11 at 1:23am
Ronald Gilden
Joey, how do you have these spurts of coherency and being perfectly lovable?
October 11 at 1:25am
Jeffrey Walters
i believe the law has its specific purpose, is all. that's basically the root of it all. the best way i can explain it is that the spirit is the outcome of the law, and i have that as a gentile. it teaches me what not to eat, and how to act toward god and other people, in a much better way than the law could ever do. you may ask, "well why aren't ... Read Moreyou led to follow torah, if it's good, then?" and my best response is probably "i'll only confuse you, go ask god."
in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).
in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).
October 11 at 1:38am
Ronald Gilden
Jeff,
It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)
On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.
I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.
It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)
On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.
I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.
October 11 at 1:39am
Joey Arnold
Ron, always ask before deleting my Jeff Sammy stories, you know that does better than a wife cooking chicken noodle soup, but I guess, since the law didn't tell you so, that you just didn't know any better.
Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......
Or Blake Webb,... Read More
Or Santa Clause,
Or Jesus, or Ronnie,
By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........
........with application?
Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......
Or Blake Webb,... Read More
Or Santa Clause,
Or Jesus, or Ronnie,
By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........
........with application?
October 11 at 1:45am · Delete
Ronald Gilden
Ha, Joey, not only did the Law not tell me to delete it, but neither did the Spirit, so what does that mean?
I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.
I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.
As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)
I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.
I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.
As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)
October 11 at 2:15am
Joey Arnold
Specifics = no private matter!
October 11 at 2:31am · Delete
Jeffrey Walters
ron, the scripture is specific on how christ was a jew and only through the law could he have fulfilled it. christ wasn't "bothering" with the shadows, or law, he was perfecting it, bringing to fruition the fulfillment of prophecy. and because i am not under the provision of the law doesn't mean i am doing what is right in my own eyes. i am under the supervision of the spirit, who frees me from the written code that has enslaved us up until christ.
the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.
romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More
christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.
the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.
romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More
christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.
October 11 at 2:05pm
Jeffrey Walters
oh, and i love you too ron, but of course in a manly, holy kind of way.
October 11 at 2:07pm
Joey Arnold
Ronnie, your pledge to the spirit contradicts with your direct interpretation to God's Word. Why do you need spiritual guidance when you can have God's Word? Ronnie, if you believe in following the Torah then why would you need the spirit? The Torah is black and white. It was written to you. You can read it. And you can do it. End of discussion. ... Read MoreYou do not need the spirit because the Bible is simple. I am actually very confused. I am pretty sure that you were against the spirit earlier in this discussion. But now you are for it. You sound like a politician. You should try picking sides.
October 11 at 10:51pm · Delete
Joey Arnold
Jeff, oh, and by the way, yes, I wish I could love you and Ronnie and all y'all right back, but I am just too pure evil to do that, so, no oatmeal, no sugar, no love, no soup for you, just pure evil Joey for you, evil Barney, evil rage, even through I am working on trying to be nicer to people in life, personally I pray and try, each day, several times a day, literally, and I hate small talk, but, I am trying to love and be nice and understanding but we will see.
Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.
Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More
BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!
Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.
Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More
BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!
October 12 at 1:23am · Delete
Joey Arnold
Ronnie Gilden's Why I Keep The Torah note was at this following link: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146150702946&id=562676138&ref=mf
October 12 at 1:38am · Delete
Joey Arnold
For if I do not continue then I will lose my salvation (Salvation Army doctrine #9 out of 11)!
October 12 at 2:12am · Delete
Ronald Gilden
Jeff, we're so close in our beliefs...
We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.
Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.
But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.
He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.
'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)
Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.
Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.
Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?
'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)
We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.
Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.
But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.
He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.
'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)
Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.
Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.
Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?
'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)
October 12 at 12:30pm
Ronald Gilden
By the bye, if the Law is only to be acted out spiritually, what are the 'Least' spiritual commandments Jesus was referring to?
October 12 at 12:33pm
Joey Arnold
Ronnie, if washing dishes is like following the Torah then why would anybody object?
October 12 at 12:41pm · Delete
Jeffrey Walters
i would object, only because the scripture i provide is clear about why the law was given and how we are to view it. the spirit brings to life, the law kills.
and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).
ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More
i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.
and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).
ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More
i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.
October 12 at 5:48pm
Joey Arnold
Law = training wheels! Spirit = bike!
October 12 at 6:16pm · Delete
Ronald Gilden
Jeff, come on man, I thought you read my note...
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,
2 John 1:5-6
... Read More
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'
Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.
And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'
I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,
2 John 1:5-6
... Read More
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'
Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.
And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'
I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.
October 12 at 6:26pm
Joey Arnold
Ronnie Gilden does not have to tell Jeffrey Walters to keep the law! Ronnie Gilden needs to tell Jeffrey Walters how to keep every single law in the Torah! Ronnie Gilden needs to simply list all the commandments so that Jeffrey Walters can see that we can actually do all the commandments!
October 12 at 6:43pm · Delete
Rhonda Elmatti
Since I've contributed to this conversation I figured it only right that I make clear the way I see things. I know my couple of statements, questions, whatever may have made it seem as if I completely disagree with Ronnie, but the truth is I don't. I'm fairly close to agreeing with him entirely.
Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...
I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.
So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.
I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.
If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.
Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...
I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.
So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.
I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.
If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.
October 12 at 7:25pm
Joey Arnold
Chastisement = God's children are disciplined, purged, spanked! Follow each of the laws!
Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!
Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!
October 12 at 7:36pm · Delete
Ronald Gilden
Joey... when did you become my spokesperson?
October 12 at 7:54pm
Ronald Gilden
Rhonda, you're completely amusing, and thank you.
October 12 at 7:55pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Any time.
October 12 at 7:58pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Just realized I never mentioned that I loved this...
"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"
"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"
October 12 at 8:18pm
Joey Arnold
Ronald Gilden needs promotion!
October 12 at 8:20pm · Delete
Joey Arnold
Jeffrey Walters is in direct contradiction with Ronald Gilden! Ronald Gilden thinks it is close! Jeffrey Walters, however, knows that they are both on different planets!
October 12 at 10:22pm · Delete
Jeffrey Walters
ron, all due respect, i do read everything you post, even the references. i even read before and after. you gotta love this stuff, although, for some, this kind of debate is deathly. but ya, i haven't missed your point, but rather, i just disagree. fundamentally, i do. i don't disagree out of stubbornness, i just don't see what you are seeing. ... Read Moresometimes i barely can see what protestants see! when i match up your references to mine, i see a full movie, one that runs immaculately and was probably produced by speilberg cuz it has a start AND a finish. the movie doesn't skip around, or confuse the audience.
i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.
i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.
October 12 at 11:06pm
Rhonda Elmatti
Jeff,
M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.
All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.
M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.
All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.
October 12 at 11:55pm
Joey Arnold
Jeffrey Walters is clearly in a different theater all together! Ronnie Gilden is not even in the same city.
October 13 at 11:31am · Delete
Joey Arnold
Sadly enough, those two different theaters, those two different cities with different insides and different beginnings and ends in the plays, those two cannot coexist at the same time!
October 13 at 11:32am · Delete
Joey Arnold
RONNIE GILDEN
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU
WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE
Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!
HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN
Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU
WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE
Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!
HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN
Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"
October 14 at 9:22pm · Delete
Joey Arnold
Torah Master!
October 17 at 1:11pm · Delete
Janet Bailey
I can tell with all honesty when I obey, I feel closer and when I don't their are times I have felt hoplessly lost. I think the biggest thing as believeres that we can ask ourselves, is if God came to you and told you to do this... would you be willing? I'm not saying I hold the answer to what is right and what is wrong. I'm just saying you have to... Read More be willing to seek the truth to find it. Our minds are flawed because we are in the world. The answers aren't always in our head but have to be sought out. If you can do something to feel/be closer to God...... why not? Why wouldn't you possibly want to? This is a question that I have dwelled on alot. Alot of the time I find I do things for man or because of man.................. Needless to say where as a result I have felt no reward and completely lost and burdened. But when I do something out of Love for God........... My spirit is lifted and far from dwendelling. Simple and amazing.
Mon at 5:29pm
Joey Arnold
We must follow all the rules!
Mon at 5:45pm · Delete
Janet Bailey
Joey, I don't understand if you are joking or not? Poking fun or being serious? What rules where? ARe you trying to be extreme or make a statement?
Mon at 5:52pm
Blake Webb
hahaha
Yesterday at 6:26pm
Joey Arnold
Spike, but Ronnie must!
Yesterday at 9:37pm · Delete
Spike Arndt
I dont recall ever saying he didnt have to. Simply stating on Janet's wall that you seemed to be mocking ronnies beliefs. you have since corrected this. The reason why it is confusing to others as well, (see janets post above) is that you repeat the same line over and over again. No one is sure if you are sincere or lashing out.
22 hours ago
Jeffrey Walters
this website seems to nail some of the more important scriptures, so i thought i would post.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=588
janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.
http://www.blueletterbible
janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.
12 hours ago
Joey Arnold
Spike, I seriously want to know what God wants us to do. That is the bottom line. I am totally sincere when I say that I want to keep all God's commandments! If we love Him then we will keep His commandments, every single one of them. My only problem is that I do not know what all those commandments are. I need a list of all the rule! More over, I really need help with actually keeping all the rules! I really want to know how to keep all the laws!
8 hours ago · Delete
Spike Arndt
Joey, so there is no confusion, what follows is not for you. Everyone else though.....
It is the nature of man to make excuses for his failings and justify his lack of willingness in regards to God's law. I see this written a lot in going back up through a lot of these posts. More recent posts claim they would question their knowledge of (his) word, and what that obedience has internally produced in them. This in itself is questionable in the fact that one should not claim in word or deed to be more knowledgeable in any regard to Jesus or the disciples.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) reminds us;
“3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” To claim your knowledge and understanding far exceeds the knowledge of another fills one with a haughty spirit, which can lead to pride.... Read More
Any man who chooses to follow the commandments as stated in the Torah does so with a righteous heart, believing what he does is his calling through his study in God’s word.
“23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” Colossians 3:23 (NIV) tells us that following these commandments is done so through our own faith and belief in God’s word, not for the approval of disapproving men or woman.
Going back to Romans 12:3, it is by the measure of faith that God has given a man for him to look at himself and determine within his beliefs whether he does right or wrong by the Lord. The Holy Spirit will surely step in and correct any missteps with conviction.
All in all, I found it heart-wrenching to sit idly by while one claims to know more than another when the bible is clear that it is through faith that such determinations is made. The bible is not a text book that can be quoted or misquoted from memory and used to suit the purposes of the individual, but a living, breathing creation of God that when perused daily constantly alters the flow of information received by all. Studying the word beyond memorization leads to the stronger faith, and ergo, allows the scriptures to dwell within one’s own heart.
It is the nature of man to make excuses for his failings and justify his lack of willingness in regards to God's law. I see this written a lot in going back up through a lot of these posts. More recent posts claim they would question their knowledge of (his) word, and what that obedience has internally produced in them. This in itself is questionable in the fact that one should not claim in word or deed to be more knowledgeable in any regard to Jesus or the disciples.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) reminds us;
“3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” To claim your knowledge and understanding far exceeds the knowledge of another fills one with a haughty spirit, which can lead to pride.... Read More
Any man who chooses to follow the commandments as stated in the Torah does so with a righteous heart, believing what he does is his calling through his study in God’s word.
“23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” Colossians 3:23 (NIV) tells us that following these commandments is done so through our own faith and belief in God’s word, not for the approval of disapproving men or woman.
Going back to Romans 12:3, it is by the measure of faith that God has given a man for him to look at himself and determine within his beliefs whether he does right or wrong by the Lord. The Holy Spirit will surely step in and correct any missteps with conviction.
All in all, I found it heart-wrenching to sit idly by while one claims to know more than another when the bible is clear that it is through faith that such determinations is made. The bible is not a text book that can be quoted or misquoted from memory and used to suit the purposes of the individual, but a living, breathing creation of God that when perused daily constantly alters the flow of information received by all. Studying the word beyond memorization leads to the stronger faith, and ergo, allows the scriptures to dwell within one’s own heart.
5 hours ago
Spike Arndt
let the defensive statements and declarative observations abound.....
4 hours ago
Joey Arnold
Spike, if you don't tell us what to do then what are we going to do.
Ronnie, you should not just tell people to do what is better. You have to show people that you can do what is better. Everybody knows that they are to keep God's commandments.
What makes me very angry is that you guys spend so much time trying to win this argument through the authority of scriptures which is good. But we are missing the point. Of course, we are to keep all the commandments. But what are those commandments. That is the issue. All I hear is "Hey, guess what, we should keep the law!" For crying out loud, of course we are to keep whatever that we are suppose to keep. It is so nice that we get to talk about this. Hey, guess what, you have to clean up your room. Hey little girl, you have to go wash the dishes/ Hey little boy, you must clean up the yard. Hey people, we must do everything that God wants us to do out of love! Of course! But how do we do that? I'm going to say this again and again that we know that we must do good. I mean, new Christians or some people may not know this but I at least do. But the emphasis must be on the how for right now! How are we to exactly clean our rooms? How are we to wash the dishes? Oh, excuse me, those are parables. I mean, how are we to keep the law? What are the laws. And then, let's do them. Let's make videos that will show the world that we are keeping all the laws, every single one of them. That is the real problem.... Read More
I want to know how!
Ronnie, you should not just tell people to do what is better. You have to show people that you can do what is better. Everybody knows that they are to keep God's commandments.
What makes me very angry is that you guys spend so much time trying to win this argument through the authority of scriptures which is good. But we are missing the point. Of course, we are to keep all the commandments. But what are those commandments. That is the issue. All I hear is "Hey, guess what, we should keep the law!" For crying out loud, of course we are to keep whatever that we are suppose to keep. It is so nice that we get to talk about this. Hey, guess what, you have to clean up your room. Hey little girl, you have to go wash the dishes/ Hey little boy, you must clean up the yard. Hey people, we must do everything that God wants us to do out of love! Of course! But how do we do that? I'm going to say this again and again that we know that we must do good. I mean, new Christians or some people may not know this but I at least do. But the emphasis must be on the how for right now! How are we to exactly clean our rooms? How are we to wash the dishes? Oh, excuse me, those are parables. I mean, how are we to keep the law? What are the laws. And then, let's do them. Let's make videos that will show the world that we are keeping all the laws, every single one of them. That is the real problem.... Read More
I want to know how!
4 hours ago · Delete
Joey Arnold
Spike, Ronnie, Gildens, Shepherds, you're missing the point! We don't need to know that we should! We need to know how!
4 hours ago · Delete
Madison Bowers
Spike,
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I'm very grateful you posted that, I think it needs to be heard and understood. Not only that, but out of context it was a nice reassurance and reminder to me.
I could talk to you forever about how much - in this flurry of comments and point makings - your statements meant. It sets this conversation the way it should be, in my opinion.... Read More
And Ronnie,
I know I've been late posting on this. Through outside conversations about it I didn't feel I had a need, but since I'm already here -
You're an amazing influence on me and I completely appreciate your writings. My walk with Torah may at times be different, but I feel our hearts are in the same place. Thank you for posting this. I'm quite certain you've made an impact through it.
- Madison
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I'm very grateful you posted that, I think it needs to be heard and understood. Not only that, but out of context it was a nice reassurance and reminder to me.
I could talk to you forever about how much - in this flurry of comments and point makings - your statements meant. It sets this conversation the way it should be, in my opinion.... Read More
And Ronnie,
I know I've been late posting on this. Through outside conversations about it I didn't feel I had a need, but since I'm already here -
You're an amazing influence on me and I completely appreciate your writings. My walk with Torah may at times be different, but I feel our hearts are in the same place. Thank you for posting this. I'm quite certain you've made an impact through it.
- Madison
3 hours ago
· · ·
Joey Arnold
Spike Arndt said that we should follow the Torah. Ronnie Gilden said that we should follow the Torah. I (Oatmeal Joey Arnold) do say that we should follow the Torah. Jeffrey Walters says that we should follow the Torah. Madison Bowers says that we should follow the Torah. Blake Webb says we should follow the Torah. My sisters (Katie & Crystal Ball) says we should follow our heart. Many people say that we should follow the Torah. But that is not the problem.........
about a minute ago · Delete
20 minutes ago · Delete
Jeffrey Walters
spike
i'm guessing you were referring to me, when you spoke of haughtiness, claimed that i thought i was more intelligent than the disciples, etc.
anyhoot.... Read More
am i not allowed to question your theology? shouldn't we be concerned with what is developing internally? like i've said, if a man cannot resist but to follow god's torah, every levitical commandment, i question them... on the basis that the entire fulfillment of christ and all the scripture i've provided makes my arguments very clear.
i'm guessing you were referring to me, when you spoke of haughtiness, claimed that i thought i was more intelligent than the disciples, etc.
anyhoot.... Read More
am i not allowed to question your theology? shouldn't we be concerned with what is developing internally? like i've said, if a man cannot resist but to follow god's torah, every levitical commandment, i question them... on the basis that the entire fulfillment of christ and all the scripture i've provided makes my arguments very clear.
15 minutes ago
· · ·
Joey Arnold
Proof Jeffrey Walters wrong! Guys, I know you can proof Jeff wrong! I dare you guys! I should bet on you guys! How much money should I throw out there. There is counter-argument! All you have to do is do what you say you do. If you keep the Torah then show us what that looks like. I do not know what it means. If you want to win the argument then you have to do what you say you do. If you really are keeping the Torah then let's get a camcorder! Let's make a documentary about it! If you can show us how to keep the Torah then I will personally persuade Jeff into the Torah! I know that I can. I am Joey Arnold and I can do anything (except for keeping the Torah because I am not sure how to do that). It is too bad that my posts are always ignored. I was telling Blake how upsetting that is to be described as a man full of nonsense. I am always missing the point. But still, if you guys can show us how to keep the law. Then you guys will definitely not be missing the point! If the Bible is written directly to us then we are to do it. But we have to know how!
about an hour ago · Delete
Spike Arndt
To question man is a must, it is the nature we are created into. To question God on what he has placed upon a man's heart, there is where the line is drawn. That is the point of my previous statement. You even just stated that they are YOUR arguments, based on your understanding of the bible that you have read. God has placed them on your heart ... Read Moreaccording to your faith in his word.
Ronnie has had his beliefs placed on his heart based on the his faith in God's word.
It is a living, breathing entity, the bible, and speaks differently to all. The message is the same, but we all understand the words differently...take their meaning at opposing angles based on how we interpret them.
Let me also say that i was not condemning you or your understanding on the Bible, just using the example to make an overall point.
I understand the argument you have made, but as you have said, they are YOUR arguments. Ronnie has made his, and i have added mine. Spending so much overall time arguing with one another on the basis of scripture detracts from the overall goal we are sent here to perform. Do we not all believe that Jesus was the Christ, and therefore we are saved if we believe he is the only way to the Father? If we can all meet on this in agreement, then let our focus be on the souls unsaved and their salvation rather than the in's and out's of who is right and who is wrong according to man.
Ronnie has had his beliefs placed on his heart based on the his faith in God's word.
It is a living, breathing entity, the bible, and speaks differently to all. The message is the same, but we all understand the words differently...take their meaning at opposing angles based on how we interpret them.
Let me also say that i was not condemning you or your understanding on the Bible, just using the example to make an overall point.
I understand the argument you have made, but as you have said, they are YOUR arguments. Ronnie has made his, and i have added mine. Spending so much overall time arguing with one another on the basis of scripture detracts from the overall goal we are sent here to perform. Do we not all believe that Jesus was the Christ, and therefore we are saved if we believe he is the only way to the Father? If we can all meet on this in agreement, then let our focus be on the souls unsaved and their salvation rather than the in's and out's of who is right and who is wrong according to man.
45 minutes ago
Spike Arndt
Is our focus to change the minds of the saved, or to save the souls of the minds unchanged?
43 minutes ago
· · ·
Joey Arnold
Spike, our overall objective in life can still be disqualified. On the surface, we can say that we all believe in Jesus. But that does not have to mean that we all believe in the same Jesus.
Spike, Ronnie has not fully stated his stand on following the Torah. If you want to state an argument then you must live that argument. I have seen Ronnie keep the Torah. But I am not sure if he is keeping all of the Torah. I know that I am keeping the Torah. But we are to keep all the Torah. I am not sure how to keep all the Torah. And I am yet to see anybody (including my sisters, or Lincoln Hawk) keep the entire Torah (line by line).
Spike, Ronnie has not fully stated his stand on following the Torah. If you want to state an argument then you must live that argument. I have seen Ronnie keep the Torah. But I am not sure if he is keeping all of the Torah. I know that I am keeping the Torah. But we are to keep all the Torah. I am not sure how to keep all the Torah. And I am yet to see anybody (including my sisters, or Lincoln Hawk) keep the entire Torah (line by line).
2 seconds ago · Delete
Joey Arnold
Spike, Ronnie may have a problem with the part where you say ".....(The Bible)..... speaks differently to all. The message is the same, but we all understand the words differently...take their meaning at opposing angles based on how we interpret them..." If the Bible is written to us then it has to be the same and not different. Spike, are you ... Read Moretrying to spiritualize the Bible. The Bible is written directly to us, point blank. There should be no problem with following the Torah. We are the direct recipients, end of discussion. Now, we just have to make movies and websites about it in the full depths of howness!
Spike Arndt
Nor will you Joey. To strive for perfection is the desire of man, but failure in this is his ultimate destiny. Man-kind is imperfect, but it is the trying that is the importance.
12 minutes ago
Spike Arndt
but kudos for your part, Joey.
10 minutes ago
Joey Arnold
Spike, we are to strive for perfection, totally, likewise, same to you, but can we still, in the mist of that, keep the Torah in the same way that it was originally kept?
2 seconds ago · Delete
Spike Arndt
Joey, you are right. But 3 men can read the same verse of the bible, and you will receive three different ideas about the meaning of that verse. Point blank or not, I am saying simply that humans WILL interpret the bible differently because they are human and imperfect. God tried to make us perfect, but that darn apple was just to tempting...
Joey Arnold
Spike, THEREFORE, IF HOW WE ARE TO ACTUALLY LIVE OUT THE TORAH RIGHT NOW TODAY AND ALWAYS is then therefore somehow directly in connection and determination through the lens and perspective and theology and point of view to that very INTERPRETATION WHICH DETERMINES HOW WE ARE TO KEEP TORAH, then, therefore .... .. . . . [in the sake of these some 160 or more comments on this, for the sake of all our marbles, for all the money in the world, we are all eager to know, we are all dying for, then].. . . . .. how are we to then correctly and thoroughly (and I mean, really, in the best way possible, because this will then determine what we do in life).... .... . .. . (how do we determine....). . . . .
do
interpretation?
do
interpretation?
2 seconds ago · Delete
Spike Arndt
are you asking me give you and answer that only God can give you? You have a lot of questions Joey, but you keep asking men. Study the word, and the more you study it, God will reveal those answers. You will never get the right answer here, only in His word is it found.
12 hours ago
private message
from Matt Kurtz to me, Joey Arnold:
2am: 10/23/2009
Ronald Gilden
Joey,
Let me extend my apologies to you. I'm sorry I didn't realize the sincerity of your heart and inquiries. I can't always wrap my head around what you're conveying, but when you speak in simpler words (because I have a simple mind), I can understand you better.
It is my fault that when you ask (point blank) how to keep (all of) Torah, I'm not ready to answer that, because not everyone is in agreement that we should. Ask our brother Jeff. Or 99% of our brothers and sisters in Christ (I made up that statistic). I see your earnestness, but I promise you it isn't the same across the board with all believers. Ask fellow believers. Ask your pastor. Ask all the pastors who chose not to even debate this topic, even though they disagree greatly with it....
Regardless of their beliefs, regardless of anyone's beliefs, you asked a question. How do we keep all of the commandments?
I don't know. Some of the commandments aren't for men, but for women. Some of them are for a specific line of priest (the Levites, or 'Kohanim'). There are some that are based on the prerequisite that we have a Torah-observant government to pass judgment and legislation. And many- many of the commandments are based around the necessary requirement that we have a Temple. Which we don't. And we can't right now. We cannot, in turn, keep all of the commandments. But neither could Israel in Jesus' day (Roman occupation saw to that). Do not write off all the commandments because we can't keep all the commandments though. Jesus didn't, and neither should we. There are still commandments that apply to us that we can act out, and commandments that WILL apply to us under the ideal (Israel restored completely, Temple, so on and so forth) circumstances.
There are people far wiser than I that could explain it to you. Jews have been attempting to for 2000 years. Pick up a book- there are many. Read as many of them as you can and discern what you can out of them (being led by the Scriptures and the Spirit- in unity and not in conflict).
However, I won't leave you with that ambiguous statement. Because ultimately I think you understand that we have limitations in our diaspora. And I understand the zeal that most people have to 'keep all the commandments' – and I'm not saying we shouldn't – but take them one at a time. So start with the ones you can understand. Start with keeping Sabbath.
How do I personally keep Sabbath? At sundown on Friday, I cease shopping, buying, selling, and working. I have dinner with my family, and I go to church on Saturday (the 'Holy convocation' – that is, assembling with other believers to worship, i.e. church). I spend the rest of Sabbath hanging out with family, friends, reading my Bible, enjoying a dvd, a video game- whatever. I rest. Once the sun goes down on Saturday, it's back to the daily grind (shopping, buying, selling, working, etc...).
For scripture on how to keep it, try Ex. 20:8-11, Ex. 31:12-17, Ex. 35:1-3, Lev. 23:1-3 & 32, Deut. 5:12-15, Neh. 10:31, Neh. 13:16-18, and for bonus reading- Gen. 2:1-3 and Heb. 4.
Oh, and read this...
http://www.graftedin.com/images/Parashot/01ChaggimShabbat.pdf
I understand there are many questions yet to be answered about even that one commandment. But just start with that one, and we'll see where that takes us. Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden. Find rest in God and the provisions Messiah has given us. Start with this one, because according to Isaiah 66:22-24, we'll be keeping it forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and...
I'll respond to some of the other posts, just as soon as I get some sleeping accomplished...
Peace out, good sir.
Let me extend my apologies to you. I'm sorry I didn't realize the sincerity of your heart and inquiries. I can't always wrap my head around what you're conveying, but when you speak in simpler words (because I have a simple mind), I can understand you better.
It is my fault that when you ask (point blank) how to keep (all of) Torah, I'm not ready to answer that, because not everyone is in agreement that we should. Ask our brother Jeff. Or 99% of our brothers and sisters in Christ (I made up that statistic). I see your earnestness, but I promise you it isn't the same across the board with all believers. Ask fellow believers. Ask your pastor. Ask all the pastors who chose not to even debate this topic, even though they disagree greatly with it....
Regardless of their beliefs, regardless of anyone's beliefs, you asked a question. How do we keep all of the commandments?
I don't know. Some of the commandments aren't for men, but for women. Some of them are for a specific line of priest (the Levites, or 'Kohanim'). There are some that are based on the prerequisite that we have a Torah-observant government to pass judgment and legislation. And many- many of the commandments are based around the necessary requirement that we have a Temple. Which we don't. And we can't right now. We cannot, in turn, keep all of the commandments. But neither could Israel in Jesus' day (Roman occupation saw to that). Do not write off all the commandments because we can't keep all the commandments though. Jesus didn't, and neither should we. There are still commandments that apply to us that we can act out, and commandments that WILL apply to us under the ideal (Israel restored completely, Temple, so on and so forth) circumstances.
There are people far wiser than I that could explain it to you. Jews have been attempting to for 2000 years. Pick up a book- there are many. Read as many of them as you can and discern what you can out of them (being led by the Scriptures and the Spirit- in unity and not in conflict).
However, I won't leave you with that ambiguous statement. Because ultimately I think you understand that we have limitations in our diaspora. And I understand the zeal that most people have to 'keep all the commandments' – and I'm not saying we shouldn't – but take them one at a time. So start with the ones you can understand. Start with keeping Sabbath.
How do I personally keep Sabbath? At sundown on Friday, I cease shopping, buying, selling, and working. I have dinner with my family, and I go to church on Saturday (the 'Holy convocation' – that is, assembling with other believers to worship, i.e. church). I spend the rest of Sabbath hanging out with family, friends, reading my Bible, enjoying a dvd, a video game- whatever. I rest. Once the sun goes down on Saturday, it's back to the daily grind (shopping, buying, selling, working, etc...).
For scripture on how to keep it, try Ex. 20:8-11, Ex. 31:12-17, Ex. 35:1-3, Lev. 23:1-3 & 32, Deut. 5:12-15, Neh. 10:31, Neh. 13:16-18, and for bonus reading- Gen. 2:1-3 and Heb. 4.
Oh, and read this...
http://www.graftedin.com/i
I understand there are many questions yet to be answered about even that one commandment. But just start with that one, and we'll see where that takes us. Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden. Find rest in God and the provisions Messiah has given us. Start with this one, because according to Isaiah 66:22-24, we'll be keeping it forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and...
I'll respond to some of the other posts, just as soon as I get some sleeping accomplished...
Peace out, good sir.
3 hours ago
Joey Arnold
Ronnie Gilden, that is exactly right, we must keep what we must (can, should) keep! Jeffrey Walters must keep what he must keep. Blake Webb must keep what he must keep. We must all keep what we must keep. The issue really is in that. The heart to this whole discussion is all about what we can keep and what we cannot keep. The issue never was ever about whether we must keep what we must keep. We all know that we must keep what we must keep. I really like saying that. That might become my new slogan, "We must keep what we must keep..... with oatmeal in my bowl, is Jesus in your soul.... with oatmeal in my sleep.... we must keep what we must keep." But I am only saying this because it is so obvious that we already know that we must keep what we must keep. Jeffrey Walters agrees. But the issue then really goes past the should we to the how do we keep what we must keep, or what must we keep. Must we keep what we must keep? Of course. But what must we keep? That is our question. What can we still do. We do not have a temple but they may be building a new temple soon. But if anybody is still reading this long paragraph, please know that there has to be a reason why there is such a feud between how we must keep the law. We have to ask ourselves why is there such a divide between how we are to do them. I will have to buy a vowel right now. I will have to bring out that nasty word Application again. Once upon a time, application had a father, his name was interpretation. You like that story.
Ronnie, my apologies, likewise, or moreover, because I really like that last post, especially since you used my cousin's name, mister David Application. My cousin, David, is 44. Only because 4 is my favorite number. He obviously does not exist. But this discussion sure does exist. But I also have to apologize because I am actually already aware that we cannot keep what we cannot keep. For example, if we do not have a temple then we would have to pretend that we had a temple (which would make us liars). But moreover, even through I am guilty as charge, even through I know that we can only keep what we must keep, there was still a reason why I said that I wanted to keep all of the law, even what I cannot do. I know that everybody has the full right to throw me out of the discussion. Do so at your own risk. I know that I am not worthy of this discussion. I know that I often sound sarcastic when I write or mean or whatever. I know that I type too much, too often. I use too many words. I repeat myself. I am too wordy. I say the same thing over and over. i either form long sentences or short ones. I make up silly illustrations. Dear world, you don't have to forgive me. You can always delete me from this discussion or from your friendship. But I will still continue to dance in this ballroom. Feel free to get rid of me. To delete these comments. But I beg you not to. And I am only begging because I actually have more to say. Oh no, I really do have more to say. And someday, I will do just that, I should take a couple days off from this discussion. You should beg me to stay away from this place for a day or for a week. But until then, I will say more about how we are to keep what we must keep.
How literal is the Bible? Is the Bible written directly to us? Why or how does the Bible ever like SEEM to be merely contradictory through improper interpretation/application?
Dear world, there is a reason why Jeffrey Walters says what he says. And the answers to what or why Jeff says what he says would somehow be found in the answers to how or what we must keep. Please beg me to stop writing for a couple of days, especially if none of this is making any sense.............. . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . (connect the dots, too, by the way). . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . ..
Ronnie, my apologies, likewise, or moreover, because I really like that last post, especially since you used my cousin's name, mister David Application. My cousin, David, is 44. Only because 4 is my favorite number. He obviously does not exist. But this discussion sure does exist. But I also have to apologize because I am actually already aware that we cannot keep what we cannot keep. For example, if we do not have a temple then we would have to pretend that we had a temple (which would make us liars). But moreover, even through I am guilty as charge, even through I know that we can only keep what we must keep, there was still a reason why I said that I wanted to keep all of the law, even what I cannot do. I know that everybody has the full right to throw me out of the discussion. Do so at your own risk. I know that I am not worthy of this discussion. I know that I often sound sarcastic when I write or mean or whatever. I know that I type too much, too often. I use too many words. I repeat myself. I am too wordy. I say the same thing over and over. i either form long sentences or short ones. I make up silly illustrations. Dear world, you don't have to forgive me. You can always delete me from this discussion or from your friendship. But I will still continue to dance in this ballroom. Feel free to get rid of me. To delete these comments. But I beg you not to. And I am only begging because I actually have more to say. Oh no, I really do have more to say. And someday, I will do just that, I should take a couple days off from this discussion. You should beg me to stay away from this place for a day or for a week. But until then, I will say more about how we are to keep what we must keep.
How literal is the Bible? Is the Bible written directly to us? Why or how does the Bible ever like SEEM to be merely contradictory through improper interpretation/application
Dear world, there is a reason why Jeffrey Walters says what he says. And the answers to what or why Jeff says what he says would somehow be found in the answers to how or what we must keep. Please beg me to stop writing for a couple of days, especially if none of this is making any sense.............. . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . (connect the dots, too, by the way). . .. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . ..
private message
from Matt Kurtz to me, Joey Arnold:
2am: 10/23/2009
Matthew Thomas Kurtz October 23 at 1:14am
I think it would be good for you to take a break from all of this... Reading those comments frustrates me because, honestly, it really is difficult for people to understand you... and I can tell that frustrates you too. Maybe, as you said, take a week off. And, as Ronnie said, talk to some people in person and ask them questions - people that claim to have knowledge of these things. Don't simply believe everything they tell you - as Spike said, read God's Word. You can't get all of your answers from the words people post on Ronnie's Note.
As I've already stated, interactions between you and others are plagued with frustration from ill-communication. Take a break. Read your Bible (the Torah specifically, since that seems to be what you wish to inquire about). Talk to Pastors - maybe look into going to a Synagogue and talking to a Rabbi. Do some research on your own and get back to the Note, if you still feel inclined... I'm sorry if people have made you feel unwelcome - I really doubt that was their original intent. It just gets frustrating because it often seems like you're saying rude things (I still am unable to decipher half of your posts) and, as you've previously stated, you're not always doing that.
You have already admitted to the fact that you have odd ways of communication... it's hard for people to tell if you're actually contributing to the discussion or side-tracking it. The end result, either way, is that it's become nothing but a distraction... unfortunately, people stop listening to you and, in turn, you stop listening to them. Everyone's become too frustrated to continue this discussion with you in a positive manner... therefore, it's become a hindrance to what could be a better discussion than it has become. I just hate to see God's work be hindered by ill-communication...
You have great things to say and I personally want to hear from you, but those posts are going downhill fast... do some research and get back to me, or the Note.
As I've already stated, interactions between you and others are plagued with frustration from ill-communication. Take a break. Read your Bible (the Torah specifically, since that seems to be what you wish to inquire about). Talk to Pastors - maybe look into going to a Synagogue and talking to a Rabbi. Do some research on your own and get back to the Note, if you still feel inclined... I'm sorry if people have made you feel unwelcome - I really doubt that was their original intent. It just gets frustrating because it often seems like you're saying rude things (I still am unable to decipher half of your posts) and, as you've previously stated, you're not always doing that.
You have already admitted to the fact that you have odd ways of communication... it's hard for people to tell if you're actually contributing to the discussion or side-tracking it. The end result, either way, is that it's become nothing but a distraction... unfortunately, people stop listening to you and, in turn, you stop listening to them. Everyone's become too frustrated to continue this discussion with you in a positive manner... therefore, it's become a hindrance to what could be a better discussion than it has become. I just hate to see God's work be hindered by ill-communication...
You have great things to say and I personally want to hear from you, but those posts are going downhill fast... do some research and get back to me, or the Note.
Yesterday at 3:53pm
Ra Ra Roberto
Should I be Jewish or Christian?
14 minutes ago · Delete
Ra Ra Roberto Should I be Jewish or Christian? If the Bible is written to me then I would have to be Jewish! Was Jesus merely Jewish? Why are there even Christians to begin with? If God wants us to keep what we must keep then why are we not all Jews? Did God make that mistake?
Hello dear friends. It's been on my heart for a while to write concerning my beliefs. This is by no means something I do often, nor with great confidence. That being stated, I'm praying constantly for God to give me words to write...
Misti Veikune
okay, hmm....Of course you should be a Christian. God sent his Son Jesus into our world to save us from our sins. He also sent us Jesus so we could have new life in Him. A Christian is one who follows Christ Jesus. That's it, plain and simple. I am honored to be called a Christian.
Jesus came so the Jews wouldn't have to do all of the old traditions. There is still the Jewish religion today because the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. Jesus is the only Messiah. He came once to our world and He's coming again. As followers of Christ we need to be ready for His second coming. My heart is in the right place.
The New Testament tells us that Jesus came to our world to save all people, Jews AND Gentiles. If we, as Christians, were meant to remain Jews, then the New Testament would never have came into being. Also, if we were meant to remain Jewish, then God would never have sent His son the first time!!!
I'm not writing this to preach at you or to you. You are a great guy. It just makes me so sad that alot of my Christian friends are suddenly calling themselves Jewish. God does not want His children to be confused about their beliefs. If you truly have given your heart to Jesus, then you have been made new and are one of God's precious children! I hope I have not put you off with me openly speaking my heart. It's just that I am passionate about serving my living God :o)
Jesus came so the Jews wouldn't have to do all of the old traditions. There is still the Jewish religion today because the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. Jesus is the only Messiah. He came once to our world and He's coming again. As followers of Christ we need to be ready for His second coming. My heart is in the right place.
The New Testament tells us that Jesus came to our world to save all people, Jews AND Gentiles. If we, as Christians, were meant to remain Jews, then the New Testament would never have came into being. Also, if we were meant to remain Jewish, then God would never have sent His son the first time!!!
I'm not writing this to preach at you or to you. You are a great guy. It just makes me so sad that alot of my Christian friends are suddenly calling themselves Jewish. God does not want His children to be confused about their beliefs. If you truly have given your heart to Jesus, then you have been made new and are one of God's precious children! I hope I have not put you off with me openly speaking my heart. It's just that I am passionate about serving my living God :o)
20 minutes ago · Delete
Cause if I were in fact in tune, I'd be following the law.
And, if in fact I'm not being led by The Spirit, what am I being led by?
So, essentially, it feels like maybe you would be thinking that perhaps what I'm doing & living is actually not good enough. Which makes me wonder with your logic here, where does that put me when time runs out?
... Read More
I think I know that you know that my relationship with the big guy is solid. But your logic doesn't necessarily seem logical.
Ronnie is then right, if we truly love Jesus then we will follow or apply all of the laws and do them out of love!
Jeff, we have to submit in faith and follow all of the rules like Ronnie is saying.
I'm not debating your salvation. We're not saved by our actions or good deeds. To be perfectly clear- and I think you already know this- I'm bumping obedience out of love BECAUSE we're saved. We're already good to go. Faith=salvation. Salvation then produces faithfulness. Due to Abraham's faith God declared him righteous (saved), and AFTER that told Abraham to circumcise himself as a sign of his salvation. God saved Israel from Egypt THEN gave them the covenant as a sign of their salvation. Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?
Acts 15 deals with this. The problem in that chapter is 'must the Gentiles convert and keep the Torah to be saved?' - both you and I know the answer to that. The council's resolution? 'Give them these four basic requirements (3 of which are kosher laws- hmm...) so they can have fellowship with us...'... Read More
But how will they learn the rest of the commandments?
'For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:21)
In short, they'll figure it out as they go along, because that's what's being preached at their churches. I would imagine most of them didn't feel led to do any of it right away, but as the council agreed, eventually it'll happen. It's a growing process.
Love you.
- in our case, the spirit is "the bomb, baby"
- the law is more "aw, that's nice"
-the spirit makes us perfect, and IT is now what sets us apart, or what especially distinguishes christians from anybody else, from the world (where the law served this purpose prior to christ.) christ is the fulfillment of that law, and his priesthood lasts forever. so it is by his sacrifice we are made perfect, while the spirit plays the part of the law. weirdly enough, the spirit doesn't lead me to ordinances but instead leads me to moral goodness, a better understanding and prayer life with god, and a desire for more... and more. the truth, the light, is hard to resist. the law was to serve this purpose with christ in mind, for he exemplified it and walked it. the spirit produces what the torah by itself could not. christ, being the embodiment of the law, teaches us that what's important is faith, love, and joy, etc. he teaches that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (meaning that the law prophesied his coming, and he is the answer, the source, and the in between).... Read More
hebrews 10:1 "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
in my eyes and after studying it, it just all adds up to me, even when you show me your scripture references. i stand by the notion that someone's eyes are bad, and i guess in time one of us will learn (supposing we both stay on the path of learning his word).
It is a shadow of the GOOD things to come. Just as the Temple was only a type and shadow of the Heavenly one. But the type and shadow is where Jesus hung out while here on earth. Strange that Christ, with a direct link with God, would even bother with the shadows.
Jesus continually spoke out against men following their own made-up goodness and not the commandments of God. Oddly enough, the Torah also cautions against this...
... Read More
'You shall not at all do as we are doing here today- every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.' (Deut. 12:8)
On a side note, it's funny that you mention that truth and light are hard to resist... King David called the Torah truth and light as well, and found it very hard to resist.
I've mentioned I love you, right? I didn't mind your unedited post at all.
Dear Jeffrey Walters, now......
Or Blake Webb,... Read More
Or Santa Clause,
Or Jesus, or Ronnie,
By the way, is there a difference between doing or following all of the Torah, God's Word, line by line, exactly as it says, point blank........
........with application?
I honestly don't know how to keep all of Torah. Fortunately every time I read through it, the Spirit gives me a new revelation.
I try to discern what applies to me, not as a king, not as a woman, without the Temple, without a Torah-observant government... essentially I read it trying to figure out what I CAN do. ... Read More... Read More
If you really want to talk more about which commandments I specifically have 'figured out', by all means send me a message and we'll discuss it.
As for a website? What do you think I'm working towards here? (just kidding... I think...)
the commandments have never stopped existing! they have been fulfilled, brought to life! that spirit is the one that works inwardly, perfecting us, where the law could never do this. if your interpretation of the bible, or more specifically galatians chaps 2, 3, and 4, is different than i explain it thoroughly. we are not justified by observing the law. that's a bold statement, but true because christ's spirit convicts us of the same commandments but on an inward level.... not outward.
romans 7: 6, paul says "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."... Read More
christ's death, you can say, took our place, for the law produces death in us for the sake of drawing us to god. this sacrifice on our behalf brings life and allows us to focus on the spiritual goal at which the written law could never achieve for us.
Ronnie, and I really would like to follow all the commandments in the Torah but you will first have to tell me how many there are and we got to figure out how to do them, and I am so serious about all of this.
Blake, you know how serious I am about following all the rules! Because if we love God then we will KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no picking and choosing. We don't have the right or the spirit to do that!!!!!! If God wrote it then He expects us to do it! If we do not do it then we lack faith! I am now a Torah follower!... Read More
BUT DO IT ALL (POINT BLANK)!
We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We serve because we should want to, not because of the fear of death and excommunication.
Like marriage, 'I want you to WANT to do the dishes!' And as men we're like, 'Why would I ever WANT to do that?'... Read More
But we do the dishes anyway. But not because we want to. We do it begrudgingly. We curse under our breath about doing these stupid dishes. Not because we want to, but because we feel we have to.
But when we do the commandments because we want to? Because we want to please God? That's the newness.
Sin took opportunity through Paul's rigid obedience. Before his encounter with Christ, Paul thought himself goodly and righteous due his obedience to the Law. But he was also prideful of this. I imagine he was swearing under his breath sometimes about it- thus creating sin.
He admits that the Law is perfect and with his inward self he believes this, but his flesh is flawed.
'I thank God- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.' (Rom. 7:25)
Paul realized that if he's observing the Torah because he's bound by the curses, because he's under the condemnation of the Law, then he was doing it for the wrong reason.
Galatians was a whole other issue. Paul and I agree with you- we're not justified (read: saved) by keeping the Law. In Galatians Paul's arguing with a church trying to achieve salvation through conversion to Judaism, therefore nullifying Christ's death. Salvation isn't something we can muster on our own through physical means.
Timothy was a Greek by first century standards, not a Jew. That was my point. If he was a Jew, Paul wouldn't have had to circumcise him so late in life. Paul was battling circumcision (i.e. conversion) as a means of salvation. But circumcision in the correct context is good and holy- because it is obedience to God's Torah. And according to Paul, is there a difference between Jews and Gentile if they believe in Christ?
'Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.' (Deut. 12:32)
and you say "only" to be acted out spiritually, as if your spirit's repentance doesn't produce physical works (james).
ron, your interpretation of romans 7:25 wouldn't justify observing torah, since the first 75 percent of that chapter imply that we serve in a new fashion. we can use the context of paul's teaching to understand his inward battle with his outward results. god's law, in this example, clearly doesn't have to do with observing torah but instead refers to the law that flows out from the mind, or we can say heart, or soul. jesus coined this form of interpreting law (from the inside out).... Read More
i would also like to add that, when i love god, it isn't by following the torah, it is by repenting of the sin which the SPIRIT has convicted me of. these sins (gal 5:19) are not sins that i have made up. they are essentially the same sins that have been around since the beginning, even before the law.
Jesus didn't coin this form of interpreting the law in the first century... John realized this when he wrote to the female pastor (presumably) of a church,
2 John 1:5-6
... Read More
'And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.'
Jesus coined this interpretation when He gave Moses the Torah.
And again, 'if you still don't buy into this idea, please read, Ex. 25:2, 35:5, 35:21-22; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 4:29, 6:5-6, 10:12-13, 11:1, 26:16-19, 30:6, 30:15-16, 30:19-20- actually, just read all of Deuteronomy 30 - John 14:15, 14:21, 14:23-24, 15:10, Rom. 13:9, 1 John 2:3-6, 5:2-4, and 2 John 1:5-6.'
I don't list those Scriptures for flavor text- I'm trying to get a point across.
Anyways, so, here's what I've decided I believe at the moment...
I know there's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. So, then is the recognition of law necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Yes and no. As a child of God, a relationship with him and an understanding of his will is going to at least lead you into the basics of abiding the law. So technically yes cause really if you're without the law then you aren't really pursuing God's path cause the law is essentially the foundational blue prints for relating to God. BUT Will I burn in hell if I don't make a concious decision to follow the law as the Jews would? Nope. When Christians speak of being "free from the law" I think they're technically right, they are free. They aren't bound to it, if they break it their isn't a list of punishments someone is gonna check and it isn't determining our eternal fate.... Read More
The lawlessness in Matthew 7 is real, obviously, but that's not me. Those people exist, pretty sure I know at least a few, the one's who say "Lord, Lord" but won't enter. Which brings me to the idea that the law post-Jesus, still relevant, works essentially like a point system. In the scripture saying there's a "least" and then the above mentioned "lawlessness", I'm then led to figure that somebody up there is surely keeping track of these things. And if someone's keeping track, let it be on record I won't be found in last place.
The way I figure things go is sorta like this, accepting Jesus as the son of God and our personal saviour is the only possible way to earn a ticket to heaven, and once a person makes that initial leap into salvation it's like they get a scorecard with their name on it in heaven. Then it's all a little up in the air. So there's a least, does that mean there's a A Little Better Than Least, A Great, and an Awesome team too? Pfft, who knows, but there's a least. The point is to avoid the Least category. And if that means never doing this that or the other thing, great.
So, essentially under my way of thinking, there's no direct punishment under the law, simply reward. (I REALLY hope you understand that statement, you don't have to agree but it'd be awesome if you didn't get confused by it) Cause the law isn't going to get me to heaven or not get me to heaven. For instance, Pete (my husband) eats pork. If he chooses to continue to do so, he won't necessarily be punished, he won't not go to heaven. But, will he be less holy? Possibly. Will he be potentially missing out on something better? Probably. But he'll still be just as much a child of God and just as able to be used by God. God will still talk to him, love him, use him, and accept him as his.
I think when the disciples where bugging Jesus asking who'd be where and who's the favorite they were completely aware of the possibility of this scorekeeping system God's got on us.
If anyone feels the need to comment on this, or ask questions, you're welcome to. BUT I can't guarantee I'm up for debating anything I just wanted to be fair and clearly-ish state my stance.
Ronnie Gilden believes in a completely literal Torah! This interpretation leaves no room for speculation! Follow all of the laws because the Torah was written to you, that is why the Torah is there, and that is why Jesus always did!
"Like a wedding ring. If you're not wearing the ring, it doesn't mean you're not married- but wouldn't your Husband want to see you wearing the ring He gave you?"
i like rhonda's points too. some of the ideas are strange to me, but i enjoy the bulk of your post. we know that it is faith in christ and repentance that wins us the ticket. some just think that the theatre looks a lot different on the inside than it did on the outside. some people, apparently, once inside, don't even see the same movie.
M. Night Shyamalan here. Boring beginning, exciting middle, oh HA! Tricked you! It's really still about the beginning, end.
All joking aside, I was just asleep 10 minutes ago.
WHERE THE TORAH MEANS YOU
WHERE EVERY LAW IS DONE
WHERE WE KEEP THE TORAH... Read More
WHERE CHRISTIANS DIE
WHERE JEWS ABOUND
WHERE WE ALL DANCE
Ronnie Gilden is going to write the following list so that we can keep the Torah, because we all need to be Jews, we all need to keep every single commandment out of love!
HOW TO KEEP TORAH
BY RONNIE GILDEN
Which becomes a New York Best-Time Seller, but this book is not to be confused with his other books, "Why I keep the Torah," and "What is the Torah," "Why Jeffrey Walters is Wrong," "Whatever Happen to Janet Bailey," and "The Superman We Wish We Never Knew!"
http://www.blueletterbible
janet: i would never harp on someone obeying levitical ordinances out of love for god, but i would definately question their knowledge of his word, and what that obediance has internally produced in them.
It is the nature of man to make excuses for his failings and justify his lack of willingness in regards to God's law. I see this written a lot in going back up through a lot of these posts. More recent posts claim they would question their knowledge of (his) word, and what that obedience has internally produced in them. This in itself is questionable in the fact that one should not claim in word or deed to be more knowledgeable in any regard to Jesus or the disciples.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) reminds us;
“3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” To claim your knowledge and understanding far exceeds the knowledge of another fills one with a haughty spirit, which can lead to pride.... Read More
Any man who chooses to follow the commandments as stated in the Torah does so with a righteous heart, believing what he does is his calling through his study in God’s word.
“23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.” Colossians 3:23 (NIV) tells us that following these commandments is done so through our own faith and belief in God’s word, not for the approval of disapproving men or woman.
Going back to Romans 12:3, it is by the measure of faith that God has given a man for him to look at himself and determine within his beliefs whether he does right or wrong by the Lord. The Holy Spirit will surely step in and correct any missteps with conviction.
All in all, I found it heart-wrenching to sit idly by while one claims to know more than another when the bible is clear that it is through faith that such determinations is made. The bible is not a text book that can be quoted or misquoted from memory and used to suit the purposes of the individual, but a living, breathing creation of God that when perused daily constantly alters the flow of information received by all. Studying the word beyond memorization leads to the stronger faith, and ergo, allows the scriptures to dwell within one’s own heart.
Ronnie, you should not just tell people to do what is better. You have to show people that you can do what is better. Everybody knows that they are to keep God's commandments.
What makes me very angry is that you guys spend so much time trying to win this argument through the authority of scriptures which is good. But we are missing the point. Of course, we are to keep all the commandments. But what are those commandments. That is the issue. All I hear is "Hey, guess what, we should keep the law!" For crying out loud, of course we are to keep whatever that we are suppose to keep. It is so nice that we get to talk about this. Hey, guess what, you have to clean up your room. Hey little girl, you have to go wash the dishes/ Hey little boy, you must clean up the yard. Hey people, we must do everything that God wants us to do out of love! Of course! But how do we do that? I'm going to say this again and again that we know that we must do good. I mean, new Christians or some people may not know this but I at least do. But the emphasis must be on the how for right now! How are we to exactly clean our rooms? How are we to wash the dishes? Oh, excuse me, those are parables. I mean, how are we to keep the law? What are the laws. And then, let's do them. Let's make videos that will show the world that we are keeping all the laws, every single one of them. That is the real problem....
I want to know how!