SOTERIOLOGY
is the study of salvation
DEPRAVITY
is why we need salvation
read this whole post here:
http://jadodog.blogspot.com/2009/10/soteriology-part-i.html
THE FOLLOWING
is about the relation
between the two
between question and answer
between problem with solution
between death with life
between depravity and salvation
between dope and hope
between curses and blessings
FOLLOW US THROUGH
THIS JOURNEY ABOUT US
ABOUT WHO WE ARE
ABOUT WHERE WE ARE FROM
ABOUT WHAT WE ARE BORN WITH
ABOUT WHO LOVES US SO MUCH
ABOUT WHY THIS EVEN MATTERS
ABOUT TRAVELING THROUGH THIS JOURNEY
ABOUT GETTING THE ANSWERS
AND
ABOUT TAKING THOSE ANSWERS
TO THE BANK
WE WILL START WITH
WHERE WE WERE
WITH THE FOLLOWING
WHICH CAN BE FOUND HERE:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=54344396234
Soteriology, part I
By Joey Arnold
Saturday, February 28, 2009 at 12:56pm | Edit Note | Delete
Jog: 11:50pm: Wednesday: 10/21/2009: at home: 414
This post was originally labelled, "Can you Lose........" Read the next part, here:
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=562836708&banter_id=501543935&show_all#/note.php?note_id=54590791234
What do you want to think... what does the Bible say, specifically or generically.... or what does your books say... what do others say.... or what does other religions say.... or should I be closed minded to only those labeled as Christians..... or do you have a religion... why do you believe what you believe.... why is such question important or not.... I would love some feedback on this, but forgive me if this question seems disrespectful (whether you are for losing it or not), if I am being closed-minded, if I am pressing your buttons, if you are not interested in such a meaningless question....
Through the course of my life, I have always struggled with this question of eternal security.... age five, I accepted Jesus (Jn.3:16).... age ten, I started doubting.... age thirteen, baptised.... then I started hearing a whole lot about all of this, from both sides, all the way up through my three years of Bible college.... I started thinking even more about this while in Hawaii.... I have been thinking about this question for at least four years.... this is the most important question in the world, I think.... I will have to tell you why, later....
Why is this the most important question, ever, I think...........
Two years ago, I started thinking.... and started preparing.... was talking to Donald Duck about all of this for around twenty hours or more, during camp and during our way from Oregon to California (and back) for the WYI (a Salvation Army week-long Bible retreat)....
I am still planning on writing a book on all of this....
I am a writer, foremost... but just for a disclaimer, I won't throw you into my book, illegally, without your permission... did I just write that....
How you answer this question depends on how you view life, how you view absolute truth (or the lack thereof), how you view what you really believe (my foundation is set on the Bible), how you view salvation, which is all planted on how you view the character, the laws, the grace, and very nature of God (or the lack thereof, depending on what you believe).... a question as such can split churches.... you may not even want to be my friend, just because I am writing this.... part of me was like, "You should not write about this, you are too much of a rebel for writing such....." I almost didn't even post this question because I am sure that somebody will get mad at this.... forgive me if I have already made up my mind, if I am actually for not losing it (Jn.10)... maybe I should try arguing for why you can lose it, even through I am against that.... I can understand why it seems that you can lose it..... if you think that you can't lose it, then you should wait for me to comment and argue for why you can lose it, even through I object.... it can make sense.... really..... it all roots from John Wesley, I think... there is a lot of history and such about all of this.... and, maybe later, I can tell you why I am so passionate about such a question.... why do I think that such a question has any meaning for eternity........ tell you later.....
But for now, tell me, are you for losing it or not?
Better yet, in a related question, can you drop what you cannot hold?
Jog: 11:50pm: Wednesday: 10/21/2009: at home: 414
Joey Arnold
: Can You Walk Away From Salvation, Part I
This post was originally labelled, "Can you Lose........" Read the next part, here:
http://www.facebook.com/wa
What do you want to think... what does the Bible say, specifically or generically.... or what does your books say... what do others say.... or what does other religions say.... or should I be closed minded to only those labeled as Christians..... or do you have a religion... why do you believe what you believe.... why is such question important or not.... I would love some feedback on this, but forgive me if this question seems disrespectful (whether you are for losing it or not), if I am being closed-minded, if I am pressing your buttons, if you are not interested in such a meaningless question....
Through the course of my life, I have always struggled with this question of eternal security.... age five, I accepted Jesus (Jn.3:16).... age ten, I started doubting.... age thirteen, baptised.... then I started hearing a whole lot about all of this, from both sides, all the way up through my three years of Bible college.... I started thinking even more about this while in Hawaii.... I have been thinking about this question for at least four years.... this is the most important question in the world, I think.... I will have to tell you why, later....
Why is this the most important question, ever, I think...........
Two years ago, I started thinking.... and started preparing.... was talking to Donald Duck about all of this for around twenty hours or more, during camp and during our way from Oregon to California (and back) for the WYI (a Salvation Army week-long Bible retreat)....
I am still planning on writing a book on all of this....
I am a writer, foremost... but just for a disclaimer, I won't throw you into my book, illegally, without your permission... did I just write that....
How you answer this question depends on how you view life, how you view absolute truth (or the lack thereof), how you view what you really believe (my foundation is set on the Bible), how you view salvation, which is all planted on how you view the character, the laws, the grace, and very nature of God (or the lack thereof, depending on what you believe).... a question as such can split churches.... you may not even want to be my friend, just because I am writing this.... part of me was like, "You should not write about this, you are too much of a rebel for writing such....." I almost didn't even post this question because I am sure that somebody will get mad at this.... forgive me if I have already made up my mind, if I am actually for not losing it (Jn.10)... maybe I should try arguing for why you can lose it, even through I am against that.... I can understand why it seems that you can lose it..... if you think that you can't lose it, then you should wait for me to comment and argue for why you can lose it, even through I object.... it can make sense.... really..... it all roots from John Wesley, I think... there is a lot of history and such about all of this.... and, maybe later, I can tell you why I am so passionate about such a question.... why do I think that such a question has any meaning for eternity........ tell you later.....
But for now, tell me, are you for losing it or not?
Better yet, in a related question, can you drop what you cannot hold?
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Can You Walk Away From Salvation, Part II
Read part III:
http://l4r.blogspot.com/20
Is walking away a sin...
When we are saved, are we not saved from all our sins....
When we get to Heaven, will Jesus advocate, in the court of law, on our defence, "I died for all of his sins, for all of her trespasses, for all of our depravity, for all the iniquities of the past, present and future, because I am sufficient (see the whole book of Hebrews), because I have that love to restart things...... except for the sin of walking away, of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (who is me, the trinity, of course, which sucks, I think)..... that is right, you walked away from eternity..... it takes forever to walk away from such a presence but they did..... they walk all the way out from my grace, my coverage...... they will have to burn for sinning (anti Ep.2:7-10)...."
Is Jesus going to say that if we walk away.....
Recap:
In Part I, we were not talking about the process of getting saved.... in other words, the question is not, how do you get saved, is it just by grace through faith (Ep.2), or is it also through works.... and what about continuing obedient faith, as Jeff put it..... I need to study up on what that means..... but that is not the debate, the issue, the question, at hand, that I am focused on, that I am burning up about....... rather, we were talking about whether we can walk away from it, after the fact....... what does salvation mean, anyways..... this topic is so deep and also very simple, right... does anybody know Greek, here.... what does it all include.... how long does it last.... is it guaranteed.... is it conditional.... what are the three parts to salvation.... or are there more parts..... remember David and Saul.... didn't the spirit leave them, and then it came back..... does the spirit leave us, today, like it did, then with David, with Saul, with the prophets of the Old Testament....... can we drop what we cannot hold.... can we throw away the bike.... can we unearn what we cannot earn... can we think about all of this, logically,.... can we lose it.... can we kick Jesus back out of our hearts.... can we disown ourselves from such a connection, from such a renewal, from such a family..... once we enter into such light, would we even want to go back..... I know that men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil..... but are we not transformed (Ro.12) and given the desire of Jesus to walk in Him.... if we are given a new heart that wants to walk in Jesus, then why would we walk away from such a fellowship....... can we unborn ourselves.... is it like the Old Testament..... is salvation just like the Garden of Eden.... can we get kicked out of the garden.... can we disqualify ourselves from what we cannot be qualified for..... can we eat the fruit and get cursed..... weren't we already cursed.... can we walk away from the umbrella.... can we unborn our new creation.... can we cancel our reservations.... can we let go of that rope.... is God not going to finish what He started in us.... can we leave Him, forsake Him, divorce Him, neglect Him, disown Him, cancel our eternal security, our fire insurance, our eternal life, our covering, promised from the unconditional covenant..................
The objective:
....cannot merely be about answering the questions, getting to the top of the mountain of knowledge, of application, of struggle, of mystery, of grace.... it must be about the ongoing discussion, as Rob Bell says..... we must share our hearts with each others about deep issues..... we cannot just live in a shallow world, afraid of deep debates, afraid of hurt, rejection, or especially, a differ in opinion, oh no.... I would rather hang out with somebody who disagrees with me..... that is why I like Jeff so much.... and more than that, are we not all in this hike, together.... what is at stake, here.... is it not about the advancement for communication.... I am more curious, not on where we stand on issues, especially since its not about standing on lower grounds, missing out on that mountain ahead.... rather, I am more curious to how we are standing.... why do we believe what we believe.... how do we conduct ourselves, in the mist of the storms in life.... do we believe in L4OJ, in looking for outrageous joy, in the meaning to life, in purpose, eternal perspective, in that happiness that we all desire.... better yet, do we believe that such happiness, such joy, can only be met in L4OJ, living for only Jesus.... beyond that, can we live for Jesus without salvation.... in all due respect, I must tell you, no matter where you stand, that we can easily become closed-minded..... I will tell you, I will confess, I hate to say, that I got a bad habit of being too passionate for something, too augmentative, too angry, whether it was holy God mad or not, I get too serious, too obsessed, too quick to judge (the bad kind of judging), too stern in a bad way, too obsessed with nonsense, too crazy, dancing in my own world, talking in my own logic, if I have any, talking in my own lingo, in my own terms, talking in like Greek, if I knew Greek, talking in my own language, pressing other's buttons, steaming out what I call justifiable, calling people names, getting mad over things that matter more to me than God does, eh..... did I write that..... that is a bad habit because how can anything mean more to me than God..... even this issue about salvation, about what it is, does it have a expiration date on it and such..... I mean, this is the confession, that too often, we can get blue in the face about being right, about having the answers, about being on the top of the mountain, already, about getting mad about issues.... debating, and such..... and we also fight, and live in our own lingo, all in the name of the Creator, the Savior, who gave us the freedom to do as such....... the problem is not so much about the problem of salvation, what does it mean and such...........
It is more about how do we look at this problem.......
Or are we content to say, "We are already glorified, we are already at the top of the mountain... we have the answers, the end, end of discussion...." I am not writing this to proof that I am right.... I am here to simply talk about what I have seen in life...... I can say that I believe in this or that, but if I can't tell you what I believe with a smile, with a heart of joy, of Jesus, of His nature, from His ways, from that kind of love (1Cor.13), then how much am I, am I not nothing without love (the truth must rest in the palms of love).... the problem is also not just about the people posting, here..... there are millions, out there who believe in salvation, and then there are others who don't..... life is not simply about winning arguments or whatever.... it is more about being martyrs, you know, living the faith of love...... life is about winning every debate, it is about living out what matters most in life..... keep in mind that we do not want to turn people off to L4OJ, to GYJO, to getting our joy on.......we do not want to turn people away from that.... we want to show people that we know that we know that we know (1Jn.).... we want to express that kind of confidence, that kind of calm serenity....... my resolution to salvation is based on my image of love, from the very deity of God's trinity.... in Bible college, debates can be deep.... but out here, it might not always be so sunny, especially when it is much more diverse.... not everybody knows our inside jokes, our references to John MacArthur, to theologians, to concepts, to deep things that only seminary students understand....
If you are for eternal security:
Then let me warn you.... I might believe, "Once saved, always saved," but I would not want to sing that to a new baby Christian.... rather, I would want to use it to comfort the dying, who walked away from the Lord, but then came back before dying.... did I just write that... do I believe in walking away, now, or am I contradicting myself.... hold on, I'll get back to you on that one........ but with the view of salvation as being everlasting from an unconditional covenant, does that not give us permission, as Jeff wrote, to be content, to sin so that grace will abound (Ro.6).... God forbids, of course, but think about it..... why do people believe that we can walk away from this umbrella, as Donald put it..... forget about Satan, don't just say it is because Satan wants us to think that...... I really think it has something to do with John Wesley, or something happened after the reformation of Martin Luther..... I am not sure.... I need to google the history..... but it has something to do with perception..... if you see your friend backslide, fall from the Lord, lose it, walk away, flee from the home like the prodigal son, then was he saved to begin with..... wait, better yet, we want to believe that they were saved, so they must of lost it....... but then again, don't I believe that you can walk away..... I believe that you can walk away from the fellowship, but not from the presence.... you can read about that in First John..... I believe that we confused the walking away from salvation with walking away from the fellowship, from the relationship..... read First John...... read Second John...... but listen to this, you may believe in eternal security, but that is not necessarily ok because you really have to know why you believe it...... you really have to study the Bible, the old and new..... I would start with the old..... wait, what am I saying..... it's hard to explain why I would tell you to start with the old........ but you really have to see how God works...... by the way, that reminds me about dispensations, and how we are in the time of grace right now...... but salvation is not simply limited to the dispensations........... but hey, my biggest warning for you, if you believe that you cannot go to Hell now, do not get lazy, do not think that you have the right to tell other people that they are wrong about salvation, or about whatever the issue..... oh man, I wish I could go back in time and teach myself this..... I would take this advice to the grave..... but beyond all of this, please study salvation because it might be simple to get..... but salvation is big..... salvation is not simply just an umbrella, or a bike, or a new body, or a new house in Heaven..... salvation is a marriage.... if you pledge to commit to Jesus then He pledges to finish the good work in you until the day of redemption, of glorification.... study what it means to believe, to pledge into such a contract...... believe it or not, it is not as easy as some says.... as Jeff said, in the last post, it is not candy, as many televangelists paint it out to be..... sure, those rich Christians can have good intentions, but be careful........ I would seriously get a collection of verses, from the whole Bible about salvation...... all 66 books have something about it, I think, and you would be surprise..... start with the first five, and think about the audience that Moses was writing to, think about what is being expressed........ there are too many sad little Christians out there who are content because they are saved, and they are not losing that, or walking away from that no matter what...... they miss out from growth, from progression, from climbing the mountain, from the beauty of such..... and that makes me sick...... now I can understand why people will say that you can lose it because how else can you motivate people to L4OJ..... if you cannot motivate people to L4OJ out of love.......
Motivate people to L4OJ out of fear, since they won't, out of love.....
"If you don't, you will burn in Hell..... you will walk away, lose it, slip away......"
.......people believe that we can lose it because it makes sense..... how else can you motivate people to L4OJ........ this reminds me of legalism.... on the other hand, I don't care if you believe that you are safe, that you cannot go to Hell, even if you go out and become the next Hitler..... or that you know where you're going when you die..... , the bigger issue is where are you going to be when you...... right now.... I mean, each second.... are you L4OJ...... or are you just living in a world of inside jokes, of your own language, lacking any love to really communicate to others what you believe and why.........
Can we walk away from salvation:
I can understand if you believe this.... when Adam ate the fruit, he walked away, right.... if we could not walk away, would that not be a trap, would that not be the exclusion of love, would it not force us to walk in Jesus like robots with no feelings or heart.... I mean, if I want out, then God would let me walk out, due to His grace..... or is that the wrong question..... our old nature can demand that we flee such light..... but would not our new nature wish to stay in the arms of Jesus..... I mean, I am going to miss those hugs from father Jesus (I am not Catholic, but you know).... not to say that the Christian life is full of butterflies, as Jeff puts it, it can be worse, I guess.... I think it might depends, but that is besides the point..... can we change our mind about the umbrella, as Donald puts it...... it makes sense that we would be given that choice...... but then again, are we not the clay, and He the Potter....... once we make the choice to enter in, why would we really change our mind...... of course, our sinful nature will still express her will on us..... we will feel it, and we can choose to believe what she says...... but does that change truth...... but would God let us go, because of what she said, because of her wishes..... was she the one that got you saved to begin with, was she the one that held out that seed of faith for Jesus to plant...... was it not the very soul, deep inside us, not the sinful nature, that gave the choice for salvation..... is not the drift due to the filth of her wishes..... when we are adopted into the family of God, are we still slaves of sin, or slaves of God.... are we allowed to leave..... if we are not allowed to leave, that disqualifies God from His character, right..... but then again, can we walk away from eternity.... would it not take an eternity to walk away..... is not sin as far as the east is from the west...... we can feel that we walk away but is that the reality..... we are told that we can, and it make sense, and we can have the scriptures to support that we can walk away, and I can get those verses, if you post them, and collect them for my book..... I mean, it can make sense, and I can easily believe that we can walk away.....
We can walk away...... from salvation or from the fellowship.....
Would God really keep us from the choice..... is there a difference.....
Is there a difference between salvation and fellowship.......
That is the question......... you can easily reject such a question...... but look at First John.... when we walk away, which I believe, are we not walking away from the fellowship, the relationship...... or are we actually escaping the hands of an all-powerful God..... are we strong enough to escape God's hands (Jn.10, Ro.8)..... if we are, then would we then be stronger than God.... and if we are that strong, then why would we need a Saviour...
Let's walk away, worship ourselves, because of the freedom, the choice.....
If that was the case, I mean, then let us do as we wish.....
Lets kill, rebel, drink, party, and be married, because tomorrow...
We never die, then, right, or what is the choice all about then........
Listen, if we were that strong, to flee Jesus, whether it is a sin for God to keep us from it or not, would that then render Jesus as meaningless, since we are our own gods, because we are strong enough (anti Jn.10, Pr.3, He.6, Ro.6), and would it not also disqualify God from perfection.... because if God did not have to die for us then He made a mistake, which disqualifies Him from His own nature which would probably destroy this universe (see the Dogma movie).... I mean, somehow, don't call me crazy, but if this is true then God must of been the Creator of evil, too, because how else could we leave and walk in evil.... was evil even created....... better yet, can we walk away from the fellowship, the connection to the eternal internet and spirit of Jehovah.......
What is Salvation..... what are the verses that describes it all....
If we cannot walk away, does that not restrain us from such freedom..... would grace allow evil...... would grace allow her to keep us in Sodom and Gomorrah.... do we just have to eat the fruit..... if we look back, will we turn into a pillar of salt..... if we do not hide the spies, will we tumble down with the rest of the walls.... if we smack the rock twice, Moses, will we never see the promise land..... or was that all in the old covenant..... was that in a different dispensation.... we follow the same Jesus who is the same yesterday, today, and forever...... so what does that mean.....
Is freedom always a good thing.... lets think about this..... say, we get saved...... we made that choice..... we were given the freedom to come to the umbrella, get reborn, open the door, enter in, accept it, trust it, believe it, follow it..........
Wait, read this, think about this, please......
hey, let's think bout this, can we.......... if we were given the freedom, the choice, that animals and robots lack, to go beyond her, the sinful nature, and enter a new world of possibilities, into an everlasting covenant that is unbreakable..... if God gave us this world, as the Creator, and give us the freedom to do anything... and if He then gave us the ability to receive Him, as the Creator, too..... even through He did not have to make us or save us...... if He gives us the ability, the freedom to choice to be with Him forever or not......... (answer the next question, or all of these questions, please)......
.......then why would it be sin for God to keep us from leaving that......
I can leave this fellowship.....
But I will always be in this family....
But I will always be in this family....
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Tuesday, March 3, 2009
Salvation, Part III
Salvation, Part III
Curiosity did not kill the cat.
Doubt erupts from internal disease, channeled by emotion, demanding answers.
Questions, in and of themselves, warrant illumination: however, when left unguided, questions will only encourage apathy as oppose to inspiration.
In this third edition about salvation, I can only confess that I asked too many questions, never mind my intention.
If you want to get somewhere, I must tell myself, take your time.
Nobody has the time to follow an invisible jet.
If I really want to inspire discussion, then I must not try too hard, ask too many questions, all at once...
...but beyond that, I must learn to start at the root of the topic.
That is my confession, I am sorry. Will you forgive me?
Curiosity did not kill the cat.
Doubt erupts from internal disease, channeled by emotion, demanding answers.
Questions, in and of themselves, warrant illumination: however, when left unguided, questions will only encourage apathy as oppose to inspiration.
In this third edition about salvation, I can only confess that I asked too many questions, never mind my intention.
If you want to get somewhere, I must tell myself, take your time.
Nobody has the time to follow an invisible jet.
If I really want to inspire discussion, then I must not try too hard, ask too many questions, all at once...
...but beyond that, I must learn to start at the root of the topic.
That is my confession, I am sorry. Will you forgive me?
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dear readers,
what does salvation mean to you
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