Torah 3

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=155721066234#/note.php?note_id=146150702946&comments

12pm: Sat: 10/24/2009: by Joey Arnold: at Free Geek: PDX:

Part three (or something) of Ronald Gilden's "Why I keep The Torah" as follows:

Ra Ra Roberto

Should I be Jewish or Christian?

Yesterday at 3:38pm

Ronald Gilden

Regarding that link Jeff posted...

I'd like to touch on some of those scriptures, if I may. Admittedly they can be quite confusing, and hard to discern. Certainly I've wrestled with them in my own heart, and I'd like to share my conclusions with you guys, if that is permissible.

I'll re-post Jeff's link so we're all on the same 'page' (Ha! Page!? 'Cause... internet... web... page...? No? Nevermind...)...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=588

I'm going to stick mainly to the scriptures, as that's the ultimate authority, but since these verses are (often) used for proof texting, I will also address some of the arguments provided with them.

His opening thesis that believers in Yeshua aren't obligated to follow the 'ceremonial law of the Old Testament' is an outright untruth, that is found no where in the Bible. This is, unfortunately, a misunderstanding that has permeated the church of Messiah for centuries, even millennia. Quite the opposite is true in fact. Were this not true, then why did the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:20 charge the Gentiles coming into the Messianic movement to follow (at the minimum) four Levitical laws? And not just moral laws, but ceremonial laws, and three of them are (point blank) kosher laws.

'Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.' (Acts 15:19-21)

If Gentiles- or rather Christians- aren't obligated to keep the 'ceremonial laws', why then do the Apostles mandate 4 Levitical laws onto them? Read Levitcus 17 and 18 and you'll find them there (or try Lev. 3:17, 7:26-27, 19:4, 26:1, 26:30, Deut. 12:16, or 32:16-17). Not to beat a dead horse, but why does Paul tell the Corinthians to keep the Passover (1 Cor. 5:6-8, 10:14-22, 11:23-34), which is a ceremonial law? Or the fact that Paul performed a 'ceremonial' circumcision on Timothy, a Greek (Acts 16:3)?

The author cites Galatians 5:4 which says,
'You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.'
But the law doesn't justify us. It doesn't grant us our salvation. The theology is correct- if we are trying to attain salvation by following commandments, then Christ truly avails us nothing. For if we can earn our salvation, why did Christ die at all? But I, nor Paul, nor the Torah ever stated that we are saved due to following commandments. This is why Paul notes Abraham's salvation was granted to him through faith, and not circumcision (Rom. 4), and the writer of Hebrews notes similar instances all throughout Hebrews 11.

Moving on- the author then quotes Colossians 2:16-17 and states that the Torah was for given just for the nation of Israel. Which is true. Except we as believers are grafted into Israel. Read Romans 11. Yes, the Torah is for Israel, but what exactly do you suppose we were grafted into? And if the Torah is for the Jews only, then why did Paul repeatedly say that there is no difference between Jew and Greek- Jew and Gentile?
'And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according the the promise.' (Gal. 3:29)
The Torah is for Israel, but guess what? We're Israel! Just as the Gentiles were who came out of Egypt with the descendants of Jacob- Israel has always been comprised of Jews AND Gentiles.
I'll go into the context of this passage in a bit, but let me address it in it's current usage- Paul didn't say that Gentiles didn't have to keep the sabbath, or festivals, or eat kosher- instead he said not to let people judge them- which implies not that they didn't have to do them- but that people were judging HOW they did them. One must understand Judaism to understand all the different opinions there are to do any one of the commandments. Christ observed these things which were a shadow of things to come, and so should we.

Now here's where things get truly misguided due to proof texting. The author states (via Matt. 5:18) that Christ fulfilled the law, and therefore there is no law left to be observed. But Yeshua didn't fulfill everything. That's the point of the second coming. Why do the Jews think Yeshua is a false messiah? Because they easily recognize that He didn't fulfill all the prophesies related to the Messiah. There are still many left to be realized. And it's preposterous for Yeshua to even say something like that if He's simply going to destroy the law. In fact, it's even more preposterous to assume His purpose was to abrogate the Torah when He endlessly told people to keep the commandments from it. Why wouldn't our Lord and Savior just tell them 'Meh, don't worry about it- I'm about to do away with it anyway.'?

10 hours ago

Ronald Gilden

Now I'm about to get technical (I apologize in advance...). I try to avoid it as much as possible, but it's imperative if we're going to understand the next two cited scriptures.

'And you being dead in you trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven all you trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.' (Col. 2:14-15)

Since when is the Torah contrary to the saved? Since when is it against believers in God? We must first establish the context of this verse, which reveals that in now way was it referring to the Torah, but in fact something else entirely. ... Read More

'Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.' (Col. 2:8)

Is the Torah mere philosophy or empty deceit? Is the Torah the tradition of men? Or is it the very Word of God given to Moses by Yeshua?

'Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in [false] humility and worship of angels . . . Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as [though] living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, [false] humility, and neglect of the body, [but are] of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.' (Col. 2:18-23)

Allow me more rhetorical questions- what does the Torah have to do with the worship of angels? Is the Torah the commandments of men? My point is that Paul was not battling Torah-observance being forced upon his poor Colossians, but something else (specifically Gnosticism, which ran rampant throughout the 1st century churches). Please read all of Colossians 2 to attain the full context.

Finally, and most technically, is Ephesians 2:15. But allow me to include the surrounding verses for context.

'But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [that is], the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man [from] the two, [thus] making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.' (Eph. 2:13-16)

What exactly was put to death? Was it the Law, or the enmity? Verse 16 clarifies this, but verse 15 is hard to understand, especially with the words added by the translators (highlighted by the brackets), so let's try without them-

'having abolished in His flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man, the two, making peace...' (Eph. 2:15 point blank)

The Law is never referred to as ordinances (or rather, 'dogma' as the Greek word that is used here). Not in the Apostolic scriptures, not in the Gospels, and not even in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament). More importantly, the Torah never kept the Gentiles out of the covenant (as I've noted repeatedly through previous posts- but for unity's sake, read Num. 15:15-16 / Ex. 12:49, Lev. 19:34, 24:22, Num. 9:14, 15:29, 19:10, 35:15, Deut. 16:14, 24:17-18 & Is. 56).
So what is Paul referring to then? What is the 'middle wall of separation' he speaketh of? It's not anything in the Temple (as the wall that kept the Gentiles from entering all the way was still standing, and was never called by that name). And it's definitely not the Torah.
I'm simply going to ruin the surprise and just tell you. The middle wall was the Rabbinic traditions. It was the 'fences' that were put around the Law to keep Jews from breaking it. These fences included excluding Jews from interacting with Gentiles- the Jews believed that they were to be kept separate- walling out the Gentiles. In fact, another ancient writings from the same era clarifies this (using the same wordage no less),

'our lawgiver . . . fenced us about with impenetrable palisades and with walls of iron to the end that we should mingle in no way with any of the other nations, remaining pure in body and in spirit . . . so that we should be polluted by none nor be infected with perversions by associating with worthless persons, he has fenced us about on all sides with prescribed purifications in matters of food and drink and hearing and sight.' (Epistle Aristeas, lines 139-142)

Not only that, but with contempt the Qumran writers (Dead Sea Scrolls) referred to these Rabbinic Jews as the 'builders of the wall'.

(For an extensive study on this with citations, please go to http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Eph%202.14.pdf
and read through the in depth study. Oh, or you could just google search 'Epistle Aristeas', but I highly promote that article. It's educational.)

Please understand, it is not to my delight to bring in extra-biblical writings to clarify Paul, but once one realizes that Paul was never combating Torah observance, the entire reading of the New Testament changes. Point in fact, once that's understood, one must figure out what exactly it was he WAS competing against, and extra-biblical literature becomes necessary. I really do prefer keeping things as simple as possible.

I really hope this helps clarify some oft-misunderstood scriptures. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. But as Peter noted in his epistle, Paul can be quite confusing and hard to understand (2 Pet. 14-17), and I certainly don't claim to comprehend all his words.

10 hours ago

Ronald Gilden

As for whether or not you should be Jewish or Christian, perhaps you could explain to me the difference according to the Bible?

10 hours ago

· · ·

Joey Arnold

The similarities between Jews and Christians is that we both follow the same God. This same God stays the same. Jews and Christians are both saved through Jesus. Jews and Christians are both commanded to keep God's commandments. Jews and Christians both have the same Bible, the same commandments that are to be followed. Therefore, if Jews and Christians have all of that in common then why is there a difference? It seems, through this reasoning alone, that Christians should call themselves Jews. If you follow God then you would have to be a Jew. It would have to be a mistake that there is even a difference between Jews and Christians to begin with. Does it not seem that way? If you are reading this then please ask yourself "Why do people say that there is a difference between Jews and Christians?"

10 minutes ago · Delete

Matthew Thomas Kurtz

Well, Joey, that really depends on which sect of Judaism you're referring... (I assume you meant Judaism by "Jew" and not a Jew by heritage because the only religious difference between two people are their beliefs). You're right - Judaism, Catholicism, Christianity, and Islam (though... there's more to that, like having a different Bible - the Qur’an) all believe in the same Hebrew God. But! there is a huge difference in the beliefs of Orthodox Judaism, Messianic Judaism, and many sects I won't get into because I have insufficient knowledge of their beliefs.

Orthodox Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. A lot of Orthodox Jews believe that He never claimed to be. Many believe that He was simply a Rabbi (which is why He was called that) and that He would be shocked if He were alive today and saw how many people follow a religion based on Him. Many also simply believe that He is a false Messiah and won't utter His name. Basically, and obviously this is over-simplified, Orthodox Jews follow the Torah and the 613 Mitzvot, obey a strict application of the Oral Torah (Talmud), and are still awaiting the true Messiah and Messianic Era (or "Kingdom of God", as Jesus/Yeshua called it).

Messianic Judaism, on the other hand, is very funny to me. A lot of Messianic Jews get angry when people think that Messianic Judaism is just another form of Christianity. The fact is - it pretty much is... or Christianity is another form of Messianic Judaism. Basically, Messianic Judaism is a Torah observant form of Christianity.

To respond to your statement Joey, you're right... We all have the same origins so we should all be the same, but we're not. People believe different things through experiences, misinterpretation, lack of comprehensive capabilities, influences, environments... All sorts of things contribute to the formation of our beliefs, which has led to all of these different sects of Judaism and Christianity. And again, these are over-simplifications of these two sects of Judaism... Do some research and find out for yourself what the differences are.

Ronnie, I never have much to add to your statements... But thank you for explaining everything in full. I don't understand why you would feel bad about being technical about the Bible... it's how you avoid misunderstanding and creating untruths.

2 hours ago

Oatmeal Joy

Dear everybody, or Matthew Kurtz, what do you personally believe? How does God want us to live? What would you personally call yourself? Jew? Christian? Or something in between? Or something else all together? I really like your definition for Messianic Judaism. I understand that Messianic Judaism is not merely just the same as Christianity. I ... Read Moreunderstand that there are many different Jewish sects, especially due to misinterpretations. There are differences, of course. But are there suppose to be differences? Is God ok with all those different religions. Wouldn't God be happier if we were all united under one exact religion or denomination or sect? It seems that there is only one way to Heaven. THEREFORE, SHOULDN'T THERE BE ONLY JUST ONE WAY TO LIVE, GOD'S WAY (AND THEREFORE, WHAT IS THAT WAY, WHAT IS THAT CALLED)? Doesn't God want us to live His ways since His ways are the best ways? All I am asking is what do you, Matthew Kurtz, believe to be the best way in following God? I think everybody, here, should answer this question! If you are reading this then can you please tell us all what you think, what you believe, basically, how are we to live for God, what are we to do, exactly, and what do you personally call yourself (and why)? Christian? Jew? Something in between? Or something else all together?

4 minutes ago · Delete

Matthew Thomas Kurtz

I still call myself a Christian simply because I always have and I believe in Christ. I also believe that I am to keep His commandments (John 14:15) because I love Him. Does that make me a Messianic Jew? Certainly. Does that make me a Christian? Certainly.

These titles all start to seem irrelevant to me... They are all just ways that man has devised to vaguely state our religion, much like using a cross, a fish, a menorah or a Star of David as a symbol. None of these were commanded by God to use as a symbol. God seems to get angry when people use idols... it seems, to me, it would be the same as symbols. These things signify great things (most?) but they were not meant to signify God. The cross signifies Christ's sacrifice, the Star of David signifies David, the fish was used as a secret symbol to identify a fellow believer (they drew half of the fish in the sand and if the other person drew the other half, then they would know he was a fellow believer) and the 7-branched menorah was used in the temple... and as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, it symbolizes nothing (I believe we started using it to symbolize the burning bush...?). We added the two extra branches to symbolize Hanukkah and to be able to use it outside of the temple.

None of these things signify God and I feel the same way about titles.

I am a man of God (uh... 'point blank')

4 minutes ago

Oatmeal Joy to Jeffrey Walters: 3pm: Mon: 10/26/2009

If the law is doable in it's exact "hypothetically unappliable" direct form in the sense that we are suppose to be Jews, not Christians, in that kind of world, outside of correct dispensation, if that was the case, or if that is the case, then Ronnie is much more than just right about what he is saying and more, but also, you are then totally and utterly condemned and wrong!

Oatmeal Joy to Matthew Thomas Kurtz: 3pm: Mon: 10/26/2009

Fri at 2:55am · Comment · Like / Unlike · See Wall-to-Wall

Oatmeal Joy

Titles are still not ABSOLUTELY meaningless or irrelevant in all scenarios. I understand that stereotypical "people book covers" do not define what or who people may or may not be. I can look like a nerd. Or I may have glasses. Or I may say that I am a nerd. Or you may just think I am a nerd. But what matters more is what I do. But if I do nerd things then you should call me a nerd. Titles are like addresses. They just tell you where something is. I know that labels are usually bad. But this is just an example. Titles are not always accurate. But you still have to wonder. I really think that there are very serious reasons to the differences betweens Jews and Christians. But I'm not saying that you don't know all of this. You have already talked much about the differences.... But I am saying that some Christians don't want to keep the Torah....... I actually don't like it when people say "Oh, the Old Testament is irrelevant to me, like totally, unappliable, unnecessary, not important, because we're not under the law...." I really think that we should fully understand why they say this but moreover, the bottom line is that I really really think that there are several more factors that we are not fully eating up.....

I really think that the difference between Jews and Christians (WHAT REALLY DETERMINES OR INFLUENCES WHAT WE ARE TO DO IN LIFE, EXACTLY) partly lies within God's will towards how we are to follow Him in the mist of culture and other such key factors THAT WE ARE NOT ACTUALLY FULLY EATING UP YET.............

2 seconds ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy to Ronnie Gilden: 3pm: Mon: 10/26/2009

October 17 at 9:21pm · Comment · Like / Unlike · View Feedback (1)Hide Feedback (1) · See Wall-to-Wall

Oatmeal Joy

If Salvationists are not at fault then why don't you just do everything that they do?

32 minutes ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy to Ronald's post: 5pm: Mon: 10/26/2009

Ronald Gilden, If you can lose your salvation then Jeffrey Walters is also totally and completely and utterly wrong for everything he is saying or thinking or trying to say about the law or about living or anything at all in life in regards to this whole entire discussion, period, end of discussion, dear Blake Webb, Madison Bowers, Matt Kurtz, Rob ... Read MoreNoland, Janet Bailey, Martha Sheppard, Jews, Christians, Mormons, atheists, Crystal Ball, Katie Jean Arnold, Salvation Army, world, people everywhere forever, hear my roar, hear my words, and hear the things that I am still yet to say (especially in the implications or extensions to what I am about to say or am not saying, grrrrrr)!

2 seconds ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy

DID JESUS CHRIST REALLY KEEP THE PASSOVER AFTER HE WAS DEAD, AFTER HE HAD DIED, WHY OR WHY NOT, COMMENT HERE BELOW, NOW, RIGHT NOW, OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR OWN DEATH (I LIKE CAPS BUT I AM NOT YELLING, I AM SIMPLY IN UTTER CONFUSION ABOUT THESE THINGS, AND PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY, WHAT I AM GOING TO DO)???????????? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMSpjyyRa8E&NR=1

Oatmeal Joy to David Shepperd: 3pm: Wed: 10/28/2009

David, no, did Jesus keep the passover after Jesus died on the cross? After Jesus was dead? I already know Jesus kept passover while Jesus was alive. And did Jesus ever break the law? And the question is not "Is the law relevant?" The question is "How is the law then relevant, how so, how so, how so, how so, how so, how so?" Question marks. I will ... Read Morebe using cap locks again. Sorry. I am going to repeat myself. So, stop reading my comments. I will only repeat myself. Nothing new there. Crystal Ball. Ann Arnold. But did Jesus always keep the Sabbath? Did Jesus always keep the law? Did Jesus keep passover after Jesus was dead in the grave?

David, I know Jesus kept passover. But why did Jesus break bread? Was not passover a symbol for communion? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMSpjyyRa8E&NR=1

Oatmeal Joy to Ronnie or everybody: 11pm: Wed: 10/28/2009

Torah (varsh). What is Torah (to take aim)? What does Torah (an archery term) mean? What is the Torah (to shoot)? Does Torah (pointing out) mean teaching? Does Torah (principle) mean instruction? Is the Torah (law, to parcel out) the Law? Is the Torah (nomos) the Pentateuch (the first five, my fave five)? Is the Torah the first five books of the Old Testament? Of the whole entire Bible? Those first five books that Moses wrote to his own people, Israel, in the desert, since they were fleeing Egyptian slavery? Or what else is the Torah? Is the Torah the Mishneh Torah? What does the Torah mean exactly? Does the term "Torah" also refer to the entirety to Judaism? Does Torah refer also to the legal and ethical religious texts? Is the Torah just oral or also written law or tradition? Is the Torah connected to the Mishneh? Or is the Torah the first three sections of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), the founding religious documents to Judaism, which is then divided into those five books (the Pentateuch)? Is the Torah just merely the Mosaic law, point blank, from the original forms of it, absent of any rabbinic interpretation? Is the Torah merely just the first covenant and that is it? The Torah can either refer to the Pentateuch or the Torah can refer to more than that. What am I trying to say? I am trying to ask about the Torah. If we want to do the Torah then we have to know how. But before we can know how to do Torah, we have to know what the Torah is. I still do not know what the Torah is exactly. WHAT IS THE TORAH EXACTLY, SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME? I am looking it up right now. I am reading and watching videos about it. I am back in school. I am going to figure it out. All these questions are really real. I am a Torah seeker. I really want to know how to keep the Torah. But I first got to know what the Torah is. How strictly is the Torah to be kept? The Salvation Army does not keep the Sabbath. That makes them not Jewish. So, are they then at fault? And I am going to say this again. I do not know how. I do not know what. I am going to say this again. First, what is the Torah. Second, how is the Torah then to be done. I am going to say that again. I will show you.




Torah.

What is the Torah?

Is it the first five books? Or is it also the entirety of Jewish teachings, the Tanakh? If we want to know and do Torah then we got to get this first term down. But I am still going to say this again. I have to say this again. Deuteronomy. Second law. Repeat it. Say it again. I am going to say it again. You can say it again. Why? Tell you why later. To be continued, haha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Oatmeal Joy to David Sheppard: 11:52pm: Wed: 10/28/2009

David. Did I say that the law was not relevant? I say that the law is relevant. David, are you saying that you think that I hate the law, now? Jeff believes in doing th law. But Jeff believes in a secret kind of following the law. David, we are to keep the law. David, we are to do the law. David, should I not do the law? No, that is not the question. Should I breath? Of course. Am I to eat? Of course. Am I to keep the law? Of course. Is the law relevant? Of course? Is a horse a horse? Of course? Mr. Ed. David, guess what, the law is relevant. David, guess what, the law is eternal. Of course it is. But how is it to be kept? How is it to be followed? And are we to do them without the secret spirit thing? The word of the day is not going to be relevant or Torah. Ignore my last big long post about the Torah. The word of the day will still be how. As in how do you do? As in Howie Dooodie. As in Howie Mandel. How? How are we to Torah? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVBhLdcFSMw

about a minute ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy to Emily Ward: 1pm: Thu: 10/29/2009

Emily, but if we are Israel then the "how" is then very obvious, very self-explanatory, point blank. Emily, when we come up to a law, we should be able to just do it in the same way that they did it because we are them. Emily, if the Bible is written directly to us then the Bible should be very clear then. Emily, my problem is just that. Why are there so called Christians who don't want to follow Torah? Emily, why are there Christians who try running away from the Torah? Why are there even Christians to begin with? Should we not all be Torah followers? Are not the Christians at fault for denying the importance of Torah? Is not Christianity a new religion? It seems that the Christians threw Torah out the window. Emily, I am just so confused. Christians are not keeping Torah. That just makes me really sad. I just cannot understand why anybody would just not do the Torah. Why don't people want to keep Torah? Why do people make excuses? Why do people say, "Oh, we're not under that law. We're no longer under the law. We're free from the law." What are they really saying? Have they forgotten that we are to keep the Torah? If we love G-d then we will keep His commandments, right, point blank? Emily, I will do as you ask. I am reading the Bible everyday. Emily, you are right, I like this. I am even listening to an audio Bible at this web link: http://www.audiotreasure.com/indexKJV.htm

Emily, my only problem is in the Torah. Are we to just follow the 613 Mitzvot Mosaic commandments that are in the Torah which are in Tanakh (Hebrew Bible = Old Testament, I think). Emily, does God want us to just do those 613? Do we disregard anything from the New Testament (that new covenant, that new law). Should we disregard anything that is outside of the Hebrew Tanakh Bible?

Tanakh?... Read More

Tanakh = Torah?

Follow just Torah?

Or follow just the Tanakh?

Don't follow the New Testament?

Torah?

Just follow Torah?

That is it?

Stick with Tanakh?

2 Timothy 3:16 says that all Scriptures are there to help us. But that is not even talking about the New Testament. It is talking about Tanakh. Is the Tanakh just the 39 Old Testament books? Is that what makes the whole Hebrew Bible? Or the Torah? Emily, but my question is, do we follow just the commandments from the first five books? Are we to follow just the commandments from the original Hebrew Tanakh Bible? Or are we to also follow the New Testament, too? Are we to follow the commandments from the New Testament, too?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203:16-17&version=MSG

http://teachings.joyintheworld.info/torahsalvation.html

4 minutes ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy

1. People may disregard Torah for different reasons. It may be different for everyone. But that doesn't matter if they're wrong. If they're wrong then those different reasons are only excuses. It would only matter if there were to be truth behind what they say. Their argument doesn't matter if they're wrong. If God wants us to Torah then who to argue? If we are to Torah then we are to Torah. There are no ifs or buts about it. If we must then we must.

Emphasize on Torah?

2. Should we emphasize on following the commandments in the Torah, the first five Moses books? What about Christians who want to emphasize on the first four gospels in the New Testament? Should there be an emphasis on the commandments found in the New Testament? Or should we clearly put our priorities on the commandments found in the Torah? I was looking for a website that would talk about that. That would talk about our need to emphasize on following the commandments from just the Torah, the first five books.... Read More

Torah?

First five?

But should we emphasize on the first five?

Over the first four of the new?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_law_in_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_Theology

5 minutes ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy

Pork?

Pork = bad?

1. Pork = bad for just the Jewish nation? Is pork only sin to Israel, God's Chosen People?

2. Pork = bad for all humanity? Is pork not bad for everybody? Is pork even healthy? G-d wants us to be healthy?

3. Pork = bad for all humanity because we should all be Jews? We should all be following Torah?

4. Pork = bad for all humanity because we are all Jews, we are all God's Special People, His Ammi? We should want to follow His Torah no matter what because the Torah is for us to follow?

about a minute ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy

G-d = God. "G-d" says we shouldn't utter Yahweh's exact name for we are not worthy to utter the same exact name of J-s-s (Jesus). But I am still not sure about pork. Either Jews were told not to eat pork or we were all told not to eat pork. Tom, Kelsey said what was obvious. We all already knew that. Kelsey came in and became the good guy. I am jealous of Kelsey. I wish I could have been Kelsey. Hop into a conversation and say that we should first be a light to this world. And I am not being sarcastic when I say this. I am obviously here to be the bad guy. Ronnie is trying his best to look as if he knows what he is talking about. I am doing my best to pretend that I am clueless and it has worked. David is only pretending to agree with Jeff. David, are we to only try "To keep the Torah?" David, if we are to only try then there would be no need for this whole debate. My Christian friends already believe in keeping the Torah. That does not mean that they are Messianic Jews or Rabbinic Jews or Karaite Jews, or something in between. Earlier, I asked if I should be a Jew. But I only asked because I want you to see something. I want you to see that there is a problem that you are not looking at. One of the biggest problem that I see is this Christianity movement. Since the founding of the church movement, martyrs have died for Christianity, not for Judaism. I understand that Israel has been persecuted. But have Jews died for their faith in the same way that Christians have died for Jesus? I have seen movies about the Holocaust. But the difference between Judaism and Christianity is like the difference between apples and oranges. The concept of Christianity is founded on faith (Hebrews 11). Abraham was given that concept before Moses was given the law. The law was given to Israel. However, faith was given to Abraham, before that. I would love to say more about this but there is a deeper issue that must first be addressed.

How we are to follow the Torah really depends on our outlook to faith. Ronnie, please do not delete this comment. Everything starts with salvation. We first have to see where we were before we can know where we are going. We are all born in sin. We are born spiritually dead. Most Christians do not believe this at its deepest levels. I really wished that you could see what I see. I believe in following the Torah. But I believe in a different way of following the Torah. I just wished I had time to explain myself. I spend most of my time asking questions because that is how I think. I learn through questions. If there is anybody out there who is just like me then they will see where I am coming from. If you can relate with me then please let me know somehow, someday, please, I need to know. I ask questions because I want to challenge you. Because I really want to show you something. If you were thankful for my contribution, to this discussion, then just let me know someday. Blake likes what I say. But you really have to see what I am trying to say. I actually support Jeffrey Walter.

Ronald Gilden, the Torah cannot be followed in the same exact way as it was followed back when they had a temple. That is why I kept on saying "HOW" are we to keep Torah? HOW? Through application. That is how. I believe in a different "HOW" in following Torah then Ronnie. And I wish that I could tell you more about this. I wish that you could see what I see. That is why I kept on saying HOW do we Torah? There is a reason for why I write or say what I say. And there is a how to the Torah. But the Torah was written back then. Torah was written for us. But still, there is a gap between Torah and us. Torah was written in a different time period, in a different geographical area, in a different cultural setting, and in a different dispensation. ... Read More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Certain Bible books were even written in different literature styles. Some were more dominant on history. Revelation, however, has a lot of allegories or word pictures.

Jeffrey Walters believes in application. That is just a different way in following the Torah. The Torah contains principles. We can take those principles and apply them to our specific programs that we are in. We can still practically follow the Torah, physically, literally, spiritually, totally. But we can only do so through application.

Emily Ward, and many of you have, so many times, have alluded to application. But there is a difference between following Torah through application and following Torah directly, word by word, point blank. That is why I kept on saying "point blank." If we were to actually follow Torah point blank then we would still have to stone people who dishonored or disobeyed their parents. The principle is that we are to discipline our children. That is why Proverbs is more easier to understand because it speaks through timeless principles. Proverbs are full of universal wisdom that are more easier understood and therefore better applied to our own world, now, right now, now, today, where we are. And the Torah is universal, it is timeless, but not directly, not always, not exactly. The Torah can be followed because God made it that way. The principles are the same. But the programs are different. We cannot be blind to where we are right now. We are not living in the days of the Bible. Many things are different. I understand that the principles are the same. Certain things are pretty much still the same. But not everything is still the same. We have to be careful about all of this. You have to see this. If you get this wrong. If you get "application" wrong then it could cost you your life.

Ronald Gilden, my only problem is in the how or even in the why. That is why I wrote so much into this discussion. We can follow Torah but we should do so through application. I wished that I had the time to explain this farther. Application is so crucial. But if the Bible was written to us then there would be no need for application. I have already said this, too, but you would have to see why I say this. You have to see why I am not a Jew. That is why I asked "Should I be a Jew?" I wish I could tell you why I am not a Jew. I wished that I had time to tell you about that. I wish I could just ask more questions. Sometimes, my questions do not get answered. And that hurts. But I understand. And many of you have answered many of my questions. Big thanks for that. Actually, the most important questions have already been asked and if I ever see you in real life I will still have to ask each and every one of you, "How do you Torah?" That is the most important question. The question roots from our understanding of salvation. Salvation is usually misunderstood, too. And I would have to tell you more about all of this, later.

10 minutes ago · Delete

Oatmeal Joy to David Sheppard: 6:37pm: Sat: 10/31/2009: Freegeek

David Sheppard, you are right about the Torah. Torah was with Noah. But Torah was in a different form, then. Torah was mostly within oral tradition. Torah has always been the same. Cheri Gilden knows that the Torah is eternal. Just scroll back up to see Cheri's last comment on the Torah. Jeffrey Walters said it right when he said "But look harder." I will have to say that again. And David, I will not lie, however, I actually do read everything you write on this post. But you assume that I do not know what I am talking about. David, there is a problem even with just your last comment. I wish I could show you this. On one hand you said that there is a difference between Israel and the church. You said that my Christian friends do not follow Torah. You are right, they do not follow Torah in the exact same way that you do. Meaning that either we got Torah right or you got Torah right. We cannot both be right about the HOW of Torah. Again, I have to say HOW (as in "HOW do we Torah?"). You have to see why I say HOW. I say HOW for a reason. And I am going to say this again. I am even going to get a camcorder and document this whole debate. I will show you all the HOW! But that is for a later date. David, some of my Salvationist friends understand Torah. However, when I say "My Christian friends," I'm referring to my most favorite Christian friends, many being Bible college graduates, Bible scholars, Bible-believing pastors or missionaries, Bible following Jesus followers. David, my friends are Torah followers. My Christians friends are Revolution Hawaii like zealots. They are missionaries. They are out with the sick and dying! That is what a Christian is to me. Christians do follow the Torah. To me, that is the Torah. To me, Torah is giving. Torah is Jesus. Torah is full of grace. To me, Christians are world savers! Life savers! I am not talking about the lazy Christians! Sometimes, I am a lazy Christian, even. I am talking about Torah followers! Jesus is the Torah. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Bible. All 66 Books. All 613 Mizvots. David, you have to see this. You have to see this to believe it. Ronald Gilden, you have to see this, too. Come with me. Fly with me. Hear me roar. Let me show you what I mean. I have yet to show you the problem with your Torah. There is suppose to be only one Torah. There should not be a problem with your Torah. Your Torah should be my Torah. My Torah should be your Torah.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Israel-church.html

David Sheppard, on one hand, you said that there is a difference between HOW I do Torah and HOW you do Torah.... Read More

David Sheppard, but on the other hand, you said, and I quote, "They (Jews) have died for there faith the same way the Christians have died for theirs." David, on the first hand, you say that there is a difference between the church and the Torah followers. But on this second hand, right here, you have said, as seen in this last quote of yours, that Jews have died in the same exact way as Christians have. David, you say that Torah followers have died for the same exact ways, for the same exact reasons, for the same exact Torah, for the same exact Bible as Christians do. David, first you say that there is a difference. But then, on this second hand, you say, "Oh no, it's the same, Jews and Christians are dying for the same God" David, true, they are both dying for God. But you have to see something. You have to see that there is a difference. I want to tell you why there is a difference. Christianity is not a mistake. It was a mystery before Jesus was born. Even the Old Testament prophets died for the coming Messiah. Abraham was Jewish and Christian. The prophets were also Christian. They believed in Christ. Christian means Christ follower. Christian means little Christ saints. Adam was Christian. Noah was Christian. David was Christian. Paul was Christian. People died for Christ as Christians. When a Jew dies, the are dying in the name of our Yahweh. There is more that must be said about this.

David, yes, we can utter God's name. You are right about that. We do not know God's exact name. Nobody knows this, I don't think, not yet. But someday, every knee will bow to this name. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And that is the definition to what a Christian is. It is going to happen. We are not suppose to curse the name of Jesus. We are to bring blessings through that name.

David, you do not want to be Christian. You want to follow Christ. David, but you do not want to be labeled as a lazy Christians. When I say "My Christian friends," I am not talking about those lazy Christians who ignore the Old Testament, who do not take it into account, who do not apply the whole Bible into their daily lives. My Christians friends are not the ones wearing Jesus as a mask. My most favorite Christian friends are not your enemies. David, you have good reason to not eat pork. You have good reason in doing the most good. God told Israel not to do certain things. We should take that into account. That is called application. Eating pork is still bad. We were not told to eat pork but we were told to take care of our bodies. We were told to be a witness. But if we want to be healthy then we should not eat pork. But it is not because you are Jewish or something like that. You may be Jewish in nationality. You may be Jewish in blood. You can move to Israel. You can be Jewish. But Judaism is not a religion. Originally, Judaism was never meant to be a religion. I know that it is a religion but it must not be. Israel is a nation. Israel is a nation that was build under God similar to how the United States of America was build under God. Israel was founded on God. Israel is a nation. You can be an Israeli. But you are also Christian.

David Sheppard, admit it. David, you are Christian, whether you like it or not. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins then you are Christian. I understand if you do not want to associate with the pathetic non-Bible-observing Christians out there. Not even I want to associate with them. Christianity has be redefined to mean all shorts of things. But Christianity was never meant to be separated from the Torah. I would rather jump off this world than be a lazy Christian. But I am still Christian. Ronald Gilden is Christian, whether he likes it or not. I am in this world but not off this world. I do not want to be related to lazy people who say they have a license to sin. They say that they can sin so that grace may abound (Romans 6). But God forbid that. Me genoita. Because we are to really live as Jesus lives.

David, no doubt, the Torah is for us. David, no doubt, we are to follow it (but HOW?). But we do not have a temple. We don't need animal sacrifices because Jesus is that sacrifice. I really do not want to stone people (but we should discipline or chastise people). I want to eat kosher because I am Christian and not because I am Jew. I want to eat Kosher out of love but not because I am Jew. I want to apply the Torah to us. If not then trick or treat. We should really see that we are all meant to be Christians. I am for real. I do not lie. If you are reading this then please let me know. I still love Israel and they are God's chosen. We are part of God's plan, too. But there is still a difference. and if we want to know how to live then we better, like Jeff said, dig harder to see the HOW!

Oatmeal Joy to Martha Sheppard & Tom Helus: 1am: Sun: 11/01/2009

Martha, you are right, that first epistle of John was writing about Old Testament law. Martha, that does not mean that there is no New Testament law. Martha, John is trying to say that it starts with the Old Testament. Martha, you are right, we cannot live life without the Old Testament. That is what God thinks. But then again, I only think that. Martha, when I say "I think this or I believe that," it is because I am not perfect. I know that it is all about God. Martha, I know it matters not what I think. Martha, I know it only matters what God wants. But I have to be careful to think that I know for sure what God says. Martha, I know you know the Bible. Ronald, I know you know the Bible. It does not matter who you are. We can all quote the Bible. We can quote Torah. We can throw scriptures up at each other. But I will still choose to say "I think this." You can quote the Bible but you may not know what it means exactly. Dear everybody, be careful when quoting scripture. You can say "Thus said the Lord" and you can say that this is what God says but you might just be wrong. I might just be wrong. The Bible is not always exactly totally black and white. We may think it is but buyers beware. Sometimes, unfortunately, I just say, "Thus said the Lord." And I do that all the time because I am Joey Arnold. And Joey Arnold thinks he has it right. But it is a bad habit to just say that God wants this or that. Scripture is clear. But it is still our interpretation. We are still not perfect. We can pray. We can try. We can get close to the truth. But we may not always get to it, point blank. But we still have to be careful.

Martha, please do not assume that I am against the Torah. I am not against you or the Torah. Martha, yes, the rapture is coming, you are right. Israel is part of God's will. The temple will be build really soon. Possibly in less than a hundred years, or in the next three years. I know they are getting the materials ready for it. I know they have the different precious stones and metals for the temple. The Bible was specifically purposed for Israel. Martha, no doubt, 1948 was a very special year. I am not against Israel. Since the dawn of time, people have tried destroying Israel. But they have also been attacking the church. The church and Israel are two different clubs working for the same Jesus. You really have to see that. Martha, you may be Jewish but you are also Christian. Martha, I am not saying that you are Catholic or Baptist or a Salvationist or even related to Jeff's Sally Preacher example. But you follow Yeshua. Christianity roots from Judaism. But then again, Judaism actually roots from Christianity. Few would ever admit that. Christ existed before Israel did. Israel was born Jacob until Jacob wrestle with Christ or just an angel of the LORD. Later, Jacob became Israel. Then came Israel as a nation. But Christ was still in existence. The concept of faith is closely connected with Christianity and with Christ. David Sheppard, you are right, Judaism has faith in it, of course, but that does not mean jack. It actually means a lot. But faith is still a closer cousin to Christianity. Israel first needed the law. The law was their training wheel. The law was their measuring tape. The law was their compass. Actually, we are all still in need of this law. The law gives us morals. The law gives us a sneak preview to the will of God. But we are also in need of faith. We are also in need of spirit and application. In other words, we are in need of some TORAH HOWNESS! I am hungry for some how burgers!

Martha, you are right, Christianity comes from Israel. But then again, Israel comes from Christ. In other words, Judaism comes from Christianity. I have to say that. Tom, I hope I'm not getting a negative tone from that comment. Martha, I am not against the Torah. I am in love with those feasts. But you should really reconsider your views. You should really take in account the Holy Spirit. The spirit kind of makes things different in this dispensation. Martha, yo are right, another dispensation is coming. Israel is coming back. But until then, just right now, we are in the age of grace. We are in the age of the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament, they only had bits and pieces of the Holy Ghost. Certain prophets or priests, or certain people, would get anointed, they would get the presence of the Lord. But now that the Spirit takes permanent resident inside a believer, that changes things. Martha, there are Jews and there are Christians. But then again, Jews are Christians. And I really want to explain that one to you.

Tom, I never said that I knew everything. Tom, you are looking at the negativities. You are in control of what you are looking at. You should not take advantage of words like "Zealots." They at least were hungry for what they believe in. I am not happy about those zealot or with those horrible things that they did. You can say that I used a bad example. I could have said Revolution Hawaii pirates or Jedi Masters or superheroes or fairy. But I choice the word Zealot. Tom, you may not know me. Tom, you should see that I am a reporter. I am trying to paint a picture. Tom, I have this ability to connect the dots. I connected Revolution Hawaii with zealots because they are both doing something. I like using words that you can see. I believe Christians are to be rebels against Satan. That word makes me think of the Rebel Alliance from those Star Wars trilogies. I have a huge imagination. I use words to paint a picture. Tom, feel free to find faults in my words. Just that one word, "Zealots," is a good example of how I can be very easily misunderstood. The world is full of this. At least we are talking about it. It would be worse if we were to just keep all of this to ourselves. You at least brought that to my attention. That actually helps me. You really have to believe me when I say that. If you have a problem with me then you should let me know. I think you guys tell me already. I think that is good. I also think that it is good to explain myself. There is a whole lot more explaining to be done. But you will all have the choice to accept what I am about to say or reject it. I will either write more someday or I will buy a camcorder. I think I should stop writing because my face is a whole lot more hotter than my words are. You can better interpret what I say through the art of cinema. If you want me to stop writing then please tell me. Some of you have already told me to shut up already and I understand. And if you really want to watch my YouTube videos, instead, then just please let me know or else I may never do it or worse..... I have a lot to say and we have little time left here on earth. But nevertheless, it is still a choice. It is always your choice. You can always take my words in a negative tone or you can choose to look for the positive optimistic outlook to what I am going to say next.

Dear everybody, I am going to be on YouTube. And you will hear more from me about that. I will tell you all more later about what I am talking about, I swear. You may look at me in a negative way, Tom, but you do so with your eyes, not with mine.

Oatmeal Joy to Martha Sheppard: 2am: Sun: 11/01/2009: 414 Lobby:

Martha Sheppard, you are right, we should reference truth. We should address scripture. Ronnie Gilden, you are the best at this. Authority roots from the Creator, point blank. We are also given authority, too. I should reference that one. Martha, but I still have to say your name, over and over again, on purpose, for good cause. Martha, I do not quote verses for good many reasons.

Blake Webb is also right. David Sheppard, Ronald Gilden, Martha Sheppard, hey, you guys cannot just throw up scriptures all day. Authority does not come from the words alone. Authority comes from the truth behind those words. We can reference Torah verses all day but that will do nothing if we do not allow for the illumination to help us understand God's Torah, God's Word. Blake Webb has said this many times, too. I will have to agree. I am not dogging on scripture verses. But I am dogging on the crutch of scriptures alone. We are not to live by bread alone. We are not to live by the words of the Bible alone. We are to live by the spirit, the principles behind those very words. Jeffrey Walters knows this too well.

Martha, I do not mean to make you sick. I am only here to express my sickness. Martha, I do not just press the "comment" send button without thinking. I am not just writing what I came up with just seconds ago. I have been struggling with what I write for all of my life.

Martha, the videos that are coming is why I am on earth. The purpose to my existence is in L4OJ. I will explain this more in the cinema movement that is coming. It will be bigger than Rob Bell or Lincoln Hawk or Rob Noland or Benny Hinn or Michael Jordan or you.

Oatmeal Joy: to all: 11:47pm: Mon: 11/2/2009

Set your time machine to 4:37pm, Friday, October 2nd, 2009, to Ronald Gilden's note: "Why I Keep Torah:"
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146150702946&comments. (exactly one month ago: right now, it is: 11:30pm: Monday: November 2nd, 2009: inside my PDX lobby place). Time to go back in time.



But we really do need to go back.


Hold on, take me with you. See my jealousy. Let's go back and change it to "Why I Keep Torah," by Joey Arnold. This should be my discussion forum. That is why I take it back. I take back my words. Because we need to go back. Because there is this confusion.

Jeffrey Walters, you're right, let's skateboard backwards, because we're drowning inside misunderstandings. Let's go back in time, Marty McFly, Michael J. Fox, Doc, Parkinson Disease, because this is the day that the Lord has made. Because it is time. We're roasting within conflict.

We really need to go back.

Rob Noland will tell you about conflict resolution, especially in team group settings. http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_81.htm. That's what we got. Conflict. Huge conflict. Misunderstandings. Let me tell you more about that tomorrow, possibly.

Janet Bailey will tell you that the truth is out there. Jeffrey Walters will tell you to dig harder.

But it starts with going back.

We need to see the conflict. I really want to show you this. But my words can only do so well. You have to use your imagination. You have to work with me, step by step. I have a lot of things to say. And I am going to say them. And you thought that I was done talking. Oh no, I have yet to speak. I have yet to speak. That is part of the reason why I want to go back. We must go back to where it all started. There are some things that we have missed. Seriously, there are just a few things that we jumped over. But I have just wrote so much. Grrrrrrrrrr!

We are tardy.
We are late for class.
We are missing the point.
We are assuming too much.
We are misunderstanding each other.
We are missing some things.
We are in a dying conflict.
We are too ignorant to even care.
We are drowning on our closed mindedness.
We are sick.

I am sick.

Too sick to go back.

We are too sick to go back.

Because I have wrote so much already. I feel that my words have gone no where. I feel that my words do so little. We are little mice on turning wheels. King Solomon, all is vanity, apart from Jesus.

But we are going to go back.

Come with me. I was only kidding about the time machine. I know that you don't have one. You may be happy with where you are. With who you are. With what you do. But I am going to go back, whether you like it or not. I at least have a time machine and I am taking things back. I am going back, no matter what. You may be ok with where we are in this debate.

But we are going back.

I am going to answer the questions, this time. I will even answer all of the questions that I have thrown out there. I am even going to throw up some Torah verses up all over onto this forum. I am going to use God's Word, indeed, so get your Bible's out. I am going to amaze you. I am going to shock you. It is time to go back. It is time to make history. It is time to live out Torah for real. We are making a website. We are going to talk about being Torah Masters. And I will tell you how.

I will tell you how to Torah.

I have asked about the Torah. But we got nowhere with that. I was looking for detail answers to Torah 101, to making Torah burgers, Torah pies, Torah ladders, Torah trees, Torah houses, Torah schools, Torah ants, Torah cupcakes, Torah fries, Torah Jeff's, Torah Fireworks, Torah Martha's, Torah Ronnie's, Torah Mikes, Torah Davids, Torah food, Torah apples, Torah revolution, Torah life, each day, step by step, through L4OJ, through us, through Jesus. And I will tell you how. I will tell you why.

Feel free to ask me more questions, after the beep, and I will get back to you, or your money back, guaranteed. This is going to be priceless.

We are going back because this is it.

No more playing dumb. I have a message to proclaim. That is why I wish that I was Will Smith from that Men in Black trilogy movie. Just look closely at my pen. I am agent J. Agent Joey. I may not be Michael J. Fox. I may not have mojo. I may not actually have a time machine. But I have this pen. Stare right into my pen's light. Because I am Peter Pan and I want to take you back. I want start all over. I want to really clear things up. I am Michael Jackson. And I really have to make things right. Sorry for sleeping around with your children. No more playing dumb. No more fooling around. No more being a Gomer to you, prophet Hosea. I have damaged my audience. But I have not lost hope.

Because this is it.

We really have to go back. That is why I asked what everybody believed, earlier. Because what we believe determines how we will live. Because what we believe determines who we are. Hopefully, we are Judeo-Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

Hopefully, we will believe in the Torah. And hopefully, we will then all believe in doing the Torah.

But that is the problem.

How do we Torah.

Let's get back to that.

That is what this whole debate is all about.

It really depends on what we believe.

But let's be careful. We can use the Bible to support us. We can take the Bible out of context. Use the Bible to our advantage. We can rape the Bible. We can twist the Bible. And I know that I have, already. I apologize. That is why we must go back. Because we don't have all the answers. But we sure can try through Jesus.That is what Rob Bell says in his book Velvet Elvis.

But for the most part, I just want to tell you what I believe. How I believe it. And why I believe what I believe. I just want to brain wash you. Tom Helus has already said this. I am Satan. I'm here to indoctrinate you. This is serious business. There is no LOL in any of this, Tom. I am here to make history. And I will tell you more on that in person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8-CmHpQj4&feature=fvw

We are going back.

Because this is it.

Because it is time.

Tell you more, later.

about a minute ago · Delete